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Think about this.
You have a holiday apartment rented out for around 10 years. It'll take a bit of beating over this time. Furniture, kitchen, bathroom, general decoration will all need updating. As the freeholder you want to continue to rent it out, but you won't as the state its in after the 10 years makes it virtually impossible. Hence the tenant cancels the lease. So either you pay for refurbishment or sell it. The tenant has an advantage over you if you want to refurb as you can't get access to the apt. to do the refurb.
So if you want to renew the lease its going to cost.
So it has been confirmed that P&V will attempt to charge us up to
19,000 euros for refurbishment costs. That is the complete opposite of
what we were assured of at time of purchase ie apartment would be
returned in perfect condition. I imagine the real fight will start when
people refuse this. Personally I expect the worst, these people are no
better than timeshares scammers, they will do whatever it takes to get
more money off us. pboyles40533.4746296296
Would the 19,000 Euros be payable if you renewed the lease with P&V?
My understanding is that if a lease is not renewed charges are put in place.
Davey
No my understanding is that if you renew you pay the refurb cost. If
you don't renew you pay compensation equivalent to two years rent
which may amount to 20,000 or 30,000 depending on your apartment.
Either way you will be asked for a five figure sum. I should add that
P&V have not come out and given specifics, this is what I have pieced
together from various sources and posts here.
Until recently it looked like p&V were the only decent management company in the discredited leaseback scheme!It now looks like the wheels are coming off!
Anyone who bought through P&V look liked they are going to be shafted with refurbishment costs or non renewal penalties!
Bunch of crooks
john
I think that maybe they have been better than most in paying rent and
have thus far avoided criticism. However the renewal/refurb issues are
going to show a different side of them.
Then what needs to happen is many P&V owners club together and generate bad publicity for them at various trade fairs and exhibitions. Mutley has threatened this in the past and it seems to have worked. A stand beside a P&V stand entitled 'P&V - the hidden costs' would definitely get you attention. It seems that lot of the rent given to you by P&V may be negated by these exorbitant refurb prices. Given the prices discussed here, this isn't a viable investment at all. It is like the bank giving you an interest rate of 3.5% and clawing back a substantial portion of it in hidden administration costs. Why did we all fall for this scam? Perhaps because it has the support of the French government and legal system?
I think you would struggle to get a stand at a
trade show, once they hear what you are
doing they refuse your booking. I like the
idea though.
I think what will happen is that once this
becomes widely known it will turn into
another misselling scandal.
I should add that I have already contacted the group that is taking
joint legal action against the timeshares scammers. They may be
interested in looking into this as well
Perhaps you are right, however all the good work being done in the background is under the radar. I find it strange that BBC panorama has never done a programme on this scam.
I wasn't aware of any work behind the scenes. Can you tell us more?
I mean work being done by various lobby groups, meetings in paris etc from other posters on this website
I agree about the publicity. Contact newspapers, post on as many websites as you can. Write to P&V and tell them you will publicise their scandalous behaviour. The tradeshow is not a bad idea. I've got architect friends, I'm sure there is a way in. If P&V can behave like this then it confirms, sadly, that even the supposedly most trustworthy of these leaseback providers are scammers. People need to know this before more get burnt.
You could always set up a stand as a French Leaseback Advisor!
Is it not written into your contract that the lessee is responsible for putting the apartment back to it's original condition at the end of the lease?
r_cummings40417.9217361111
Can,t believe P&V are asking huge sums for refurbishment.i also thought that they should return the appartment in its original condition.
i would have thought it was the least they could do after taking between 70-80 per cent of the rental take!
i must concede that i always thought that sooner or later they would hit us with a new furniture package!
My contract certainly say that the lessee must return the apartment to the original condition at the end of the lease.
r_cummings40418.8621296296
Whatever the contract states, after 10 years of hard rentals your apt. will need refurbishment. Furniture and appliances will need replacement. Do you think the management company will do all this for you out of kindness?. Like any rental an allowance can be made by the tenant for fair wear and tear.
If you want to renew the leaseback for another 10 years the management company can make any demands it wants. If you don't play ball then it won't renew the lease and you will have to sell or rent it out yourself (or via another agency).
Either way you are going to have to bring it up to rental standard at your own expense. You will find out for sure how true this is at the end of your lease.
strider40419.7640393519If they are legally contracted to return the place to it's original state then they will have to do it. Mind you, they are legally contracted to pay the rents...but they don't.
It was made absolutely clear to me when I bought that it would be returned in 'perfect condition' so my understanding is the same as yours. So whilst it may well need refurbishment after 11 years the deal was that they would be doing it and not us. I can tell you now that bringing it up to rental standards would take half of what they have quoted people (did I see 27,000 mentioned?).
Who is your lease with and when does it end?
Who made it clear to you?. How did they make it clear to you, in writing as part of the lease agreement?. What is "perfect condition"?. Did they say it was free to bring it up to this standard?.
As you can see by this forum, even agreements in writing are easily ignored. Leasebacks are full of dirty tricks.
Best of luck. I do hope it turns out ok.
My lease is now with Pierre et Vacances having been sold off to them by MGM. It ends late 2012.
The MGM estate agents in Regents Street, London made the conditions very clear to me. I believed it was in the lease document but I dont have it to hand now. They have since recanted and said that because the leases were sold to P&V the original conditions may not apply.
There was no mention of being charged for refurbishment or paying any sort of penalty for not renewing.
Like you said nothing's worth the paper its written on, they'll do as they please, if they can refuse to pay 'guaranteed' rent then they charge you for refurbishment I suppose.
My lease is with Odalys and ends mid 2011.
I don't want to renew the lease but instead sell on the market as ordinary apt. sale (its cote d'azur).
I have a feeling though its going to be pretty hammered by the time I get it. There's nothing in it for Odalys to spend any money on it if I'm not going to renew.
So once owners get through the rent payment minefield, I reckon this little problem may rear its ugly head. Hope I'm wrong but will keep you posted.
Hi strider,
I am also with Odalys and my lease expires end of 2012!
looking at the flat objectivley,i cant see any more than a couple hundred euros to bring back to odalys rentable standard.
What development are you on?
john
John
How are you going about negotiating a new lease?
JuanAzur,
I am not!Near renewal i will listen to what Odalys have to offer!
Increased rent(i doubt),more personal use(perhaps)but i won't be accepting any refurbish costs as a condition of reneawal!
If it gets too heavy,i will walk away and sell or rent the appartment myself.
because they are renting it a considerable price,right up to the renewal date,i would expect it back in tip top condition!
john
Thanks John, I'll be interested in seeing what happens.
Jaward,
When will Odalys contact you with some options, if any?
Do you have to give notice if you don't want to renew the lease?
You are fortunate you can easily walk away - many won't be able to.
BTW I've pm'd you
Strider
I was led to believe you need to give 1 years notice if you are not renewing. However I've heard so much conflicting information that I don't know what to believe. Safe to say you should give as much notice as possible to prevent that being used as an excuse.
pboyles40436.8736458333
I agree,1 year seems to be the accepted notice period!
Then they will probably set there lawyers on us as regards there compensation for damages!
or alternately demand rediculous amounts for refurbishment like p&v!
An interesting 12 months i think!
john
I was recently told to e mail the following e mail address with questions about the lease renewal. I did so on 10th September and got a reply today basically saying that they would get back to me as soon as possible. I dont know if this is just for my residence or if its for all P&V residences, perhaps other P&V owners could give it a try as well.
drafflewski@pierre-vacances.fr
pboyles40436.9467939815
...and I'm still waiting for a response.
Today I received some correspondence about the AGM. Attached is a letter from P&V saying they will have a meeting in 2013 (the year the lease expires) regarding renewal. They specifically mention refurbishment costs and outline a schedule of payments. It does not fully explain the circumstances (as usual) but my reading of it is that they will renew the lease and try to make us pay for refurbishment.