Samoens Owners - Joint Action

17 October 2012

I have managed to contact a French owner (Jean Marc Dufresne) of

Samoens who proposes to help us put together an association to fight

Soderev.

One association will be enough to defend our interests.

It is very important that this is done quickly so as not to fall behind in the

process.

Once it is created (Jean Marc proposes to do that) three persons at the

minimum will need to be appointed as chair, treasurer and secretary.

He has sourced a specialized lawyer that would help us a lot. The cost is

likely to be around 500-600 euros per participant of legal fees.

The role of the association will be precisely defined and quantified.

 

-The people for whom their loans poses a real problem, can request the

suspension of the payment of the mortgage, for a period of two years by a

letter to the trial judge. (For the procedure, the lawyer can help)

You can contact Jean Marc directly on jmduf01@gmail.com to give him

an email address.

It is very important that as few people as possible (ideally no one) signs

the much reduced rents that Soderev will offer (likely to be 50% of current

rents) and most people in other residences who have signed such

agreements failed to realise that they are also then responsible for all the

charges, as it tends to be well hidden in the texts !

We will not get the 3rd quarter rent now but should get the 4th quarter

2012.

I am an owner of Samoens, and French, but resident in the UK for over 30

years.

I'll try to answer any questions as best I can.

Submitted by skibunny on

We are also owners in Les Fermes de Samoens.
With regards to losing the VAT status and having to pay back a proportion of the VAT is the general feeling we would be better doing this and not having a management company (who would manage to pool, reception, laundry etc?)
I read somewhere, although I cannot now find the article, that there has been a change in the law (after recent issues with a lot of leaseback companies failing). Perhaps it was on this site somewhere or elsewhere - can't remember. The change introduces two things not previously allowed 1.) The company managing the leaseback need not be a special company so now owners can club together and find a local estate agent to do it 2.) The income need not be a % return it can now be a mixture of % return and according to actual income (if it had to be a guaranteed return you would never find a local agent to take it on)
Does anyone know about this and is it something worth looking in to more before we write the VAT off?

Submitted by amjdxb on

Skibunny (great name), as we now know, in the event we move into the situation of repaying some VAT we will have three years to do so, so that presumably can be paid from income rather than up front cash, which should help us keep on side any owners who might be financially concerned at this point and who might otherwise be willing to sign up to a new lesser deal. This is the good news on the post Soderev life at FdS.


However under the scenario envisaged for the management of the FdS complex post Soderev/Lagrange, there are several issues; (a) day to day maintenance/management of the buildings and services, (b) promotion of the development for holiday lettings and (c) financial management of what could then become a new business in which we all have an ownership stake.


The first of these would probably be easiest to deal with as existing staff could probably be persuaded to stay on. New contracts though and with whom?


The promotion of the place for holidays is likely a full time requirement and to that end we would need to quickly find a professional company able to do that, unless every one imagines us individually advertising apartments through the various web sites - in which case we'd do well to stop ourselves getting into a bidding war wouldn't we. How then to self police on setting the rates? So, where are these professional holiday management entities and how does a collective like us sign up to one? Would we then be into a situation of being dictated to again on the rates we can expect? Maybe there is the scenario postulated on of us finding a holiday management company who would pay some portion of rent on an agreed basis and then sharing profits between us all at the end of the year...? Again, is that feasible and does such a party exist other than in our dreams?


The financial management requirement comes from the holiday lettings issue. If we were to try to self manage the whole complex then we would need someone to control the cash flow from lettings (through a group income?) and ensure all owners are paid a proportionate return on a regular basis. OR, if it becomes every man for himself on the lettings front, then someone needs to ensure everyone is paying their regular share of the management costs for maintaining and servicing the development. That could be a local accountant, but again, how do we self police if/when people stop pulling their weight and paying on time or as required?


I am concerned that we may all be staring at the possibility of becoming unwitting partners/managers in a business in a foreign land when we all originally thought we were just onto a simple investment. Everyone needs to think seriously about what the alternatives are to what we currently have and decide if you have the stomach to push on. I am not for one minute advocating that we consider accepting rent reductions from Soderev, but I'm getting concerned now I think about it, as to what the alternatives will be and how difficult they might be for us all to achieve.


However, given all the above we are still the owners and without us, Soderev have no business, so do we have something to negotiate with them on? Maybe a willingness to partnership (share profits?)rather than simply being tied into a (new, lesser) lease??


Otherwise there is maybe an opportunity for one of us to step forward into the full time role of project manager for the new FdS?? Any volunteers?

Submitted by thom on

Hi All,I am an owner in LFDS .I have agree with a lot of what has been said by previous contributors.Many of us own one or more properties and are finding this experience difficult.It is true that as a group we shall have different outlooks and different goals.I have been through this before with another property with Residhotel[they were given 10 years to pay us after a declaration de creance] and they still never increased the rents according to the lease!And unfortunately we are now in the same boat again with them as well as with this one with Soderev.
I commend anybody attempting to organize us as a group but as a large percentage of us are english speaking it is vital that everything be done bilingually.I received some emails from the French side organizing us but
all correspondence was in french.
I have read most of the threads on this forum and for now don't see the need to pay a large sum to form an association.By all means we need to organize but this should not cost more than say €50 .What we need is some representation like Mr Cortez who understands leaseback and the mentality of the British and Irish and represent us at any of these meetings.
I for one am willing to lose the leaseback status and pay the pro rata Vat to allow me to at least use the apartment I own!I have lost faith in both the french legal system and the honesty of any leaseback company.I would urge people to take the hit and self manage as a group .If peoples circumstance don't allow for this option that is your choice but I was happy to take Residhotel at there word 3 years ago and we are now back to square one with them.
I stress again the need for bilingual representation .

I am no expert, but what is on my side is that I am French, have lived in

the UK for 32 years now, so I am fluent in the language. I am also a

qualified accountant, for what it's worth.

As I understand it then, Soderev, who is the company we have the lease

with, i.e. they receive the rent from holidaymakers and pay us the fixed

rent per the lease, are in administration. They have been making losses of

around 2 million euros a year for the past two years.

Now an official receiver has been appointed to look at what can be done

to save the company. He will look at what options there are to reduce the

costs of the company. The main option for them seems to be to cut our

rents, which is the expense that can be cut the most easily.

To that effect, there is an information meeting in Paris on 13th November,

where the attendees will be given the full accounts of the company and

the accounts for Samoens. It looks like there are loads of meetings like

this, they probably just take an hour or two for each residence. There is a

series of meetings on 28 October for a number of residences, all day long,

one after the other. I presume on the 13th November, when there is the

meeting for Samoens, there will also be meetings at other times during

the day for other residences.

Now depending what the profit/loss situation is for our residence, they

will suggest a significant reduction in the rents they pay us or might even

want to get rid of the lease with us altogether, if it is really bad as far as

they are concerned.

Now the problem with accepting reduced rents is that not only will our

costs go up if we have a mortgage (this part is obvious) but the value of

the property will seriously go down, as the value is based not on the

market value of flats in the area, but on the rent we receive, as any buyer

will be tied in to the lease also and cannot do what he wants with the

property, as he could with any other.

Moreover, it is likely that Soderev will also ask us to pay more of the

charges, which we do not pay at the moment, except for some small

amounts. So we might well get nothing net of charges. This is often

missed by people when they accept this change to the lease, they do not

read it properly.

Now if a majority of owners do not sign we have some bargaining power,

and we can ask for a number of things. This has been done for other

residences.

We could for example ask for the rent reduction to be temporary, let's say

two years. We could also ask for more access to the property, when it is

not rented out (for example at short notice, rather than having to decide

more than 6 months before) or in the off season, and then be permitted

to rent it out ourselves during those times. And other things people can

think about....

We could also make suggestions as to how they can better rent out our

properties, or reduce their costs for our property.

Otherwise, there is the option of finding another managing company for

our residence. This might be an option particularly if people thing that the

current ones have not done a good job. For example, a smaller operator

might have less overheads and therefore the whole thing might be more

profitable, ensuring that we get better rents too.

Otherwise, the last option, but not ideal in my view, is to get out of the

leaseback altogether. This would probably mean repaying part of the VAT

discount we received when we bought the property, i.e. 6 years have

passed, and it is over 20 years, so this means we would have to repay

14/20 of the VAT originally refunded. This can now be spread over a

period of 3 years.

As someone else explains well here, there is also the option to self-

manage, which sounds like a lot of work for something that was meant to

be easy to manage.

For the French mortgage, I understand that it is also possible to ask for a

payment holiday for 2 years.

For the rent at the moment, the situation is that we will not get the rent

for the 3rd quarter, but should get the normal rent for the 4th quarter.

For this missing rent for the 3rd quarter, we have to put in a claim to the

receiver. The French have two months from the date of the receivership

(28th September) to make this claim, whereas owners abroad have 4

months (so the latest 28th January to put in the claim).

If you read the lease, you can see that we also should have had a rent

increase of 1.5% in November 2011, as this has not happened, this should

be put as part of the claim.

So this is a debt to us that Soderev has to pay at one point, but this could

be years from now.

Now for what actions have taken place so far.

Well, one French owner, Jean Marc Dufresne, has got together a number of

owners of Samoens (he also owns another leaseback in trouble, but is not

shown on the list of owners directly as he owns it through a company in

Switzerland), and has contacted a lawyer in France that he knows with a

view of forming an association of owners.

He already had a meeting with this lawyer who sends us a proposal for the

statutes of the association, together with a long letter including his views

and comments.

On the other hand, there is Kate who managed to get a list of English

owners together, also around 20. So these are the people I sent whatever

information I could. This is all I know.

I think it would be really good to have someone go to the meeting on 13th

November and gather all the information. Apparently it can be also held in

English at people's request. Please let all of us know if one of you is

going to the meeting, and then the information given there can be passed

to a maximum of owners.

The problem with grouping together is that the lists of owners are freely

available, but they only show names and addresses, so those people who

have not found either the English forum (www.frenchleaseback.net) or the

French forum (www.legavox.com) are difficult to speak to, unless

someone is prepared to send them a letter by post. I believe Jean Marc

Dufresne is doing that with the owners of Samoens and his other

residence in France.

Voila, that's my take on it for now.

Hope it helps!

Another bit of information:

Lagrange is happily developing and building new leasebacks, according to

their own website:

http://www.lagrange-patrimoine.com/achat-immobilier-fiscalit es-

programmes-tourisme.html

NEW TOURIST RESIDENCES CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED BY LAGRANGE

1. ANTIBES Azur Bay Resort (Alpes-Maritimes)

2. BASSUSSARRY Makila Alde (Pyrénées-Atlantiques)

3. CHATEL Grand Lodge & Grand Ermitage (Haute-Savoie)

4. PLAGNE VILLAGES Aspen (Savoie)

5. PRALOGNAN-LA-VANOISE Les Hauts de la Vanoise (Savoie)

How does that tie in with a company that is in receivership? This would

be a question to ask at the meeting, I think.

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

OK. Maybe I am missing something but I think that we are all saying the same thing, that we are all angry and fed up and that we value the advice and cooperation that we have already achieved and that we want to work together. I really value the info/advice and support that this site has offered but feel that we need to take some early steps before we run out of time


So, based on various posts can we, as owners at LFDS, agree that;



  1. We need to take one step at a time and focus on the first meeting only for now
  2. We want bilingual representation at the meeting on 13th November
  3. That we need legal advice on our residence of LFDS
  4. That we wish to particpate with other properties/ UK owner groups and exchange info with others on this site
  5. That as UK owners we will independently but co-operatively exchange information with French owners

To that end we need to agree



  1. Who we appoint as our representative for the first meeting in Paris (perhaps post a small summary about them, their background, expertise, costs etc on this link or via Steve R's old forum site) then we vote. This could be a bilingual owner who is prepared to post back to the group initially or an agreed solicitor who will work with us all theway through
  2. How we fund this representation
  3. If we should subsequently meet with that representative in London en masse so that we can get better informed and get to meet each other

Regards


Nik





Blotch41204.9032291667

Submitted by Justme on

One further thought -has anyone spoken to the team at Peak Retreats

who have been selling holidays for our apartments (assuming they

have no link to laGrange). Do they forward purchase the rentals? What

situation have they been left in? Can they give us a steer on

occupancy rentals? What does anyone think?

Submitted by Petjan on

A response to all. Just to register our interest and support. We will properly read all posts etc. in the coming days. There is a lot to read, and all very interesting.Initial thoughts are that we would like to get out of the leaseback if we can. At least that way we can use our apartment in the absence of renting it. That is not to say we do not need the rent, but do not want to end up with 'nothing'. Would definately be interested in meeting up with other owners, even if it means travelling to do so. We are in Hertfordshire by the way.


Our apartment is C202


Jane and Peter Mulcahy



Petjan41206.8352430556

All your suggestions and ideas are valid and the way forward would be

to appoint French lawyers to advise us on implications of appointing a

local management company to take over the leases and management

of LFDS and the costs involved.

The lessee should be a company whose shares would be owned by

the owners.and we would need advice as to whether this is possible

under French Law.

We will be in Samoens for the week beginning 12 January and it would

nice to meet other owners

Freddy and Sharon Lemer

Submitted by Lisanne on

Fred lemer


We are also owners at LFDS.


We will be out there week of 12 January and would be happy to meet up.


Lisanne & Martin


(D18)

Submitted by amjdxb on

Finlay, all noted, thanks. My earlier cynical view was that these meetings would just be about Soderev setting out their case, with no real specifics. Seems that that is the case.


I think we're going to have to organise some sort of meeting or conf call of as many interested owners as possible, maybe post the November Soderev meet, where we will need to quickly establish agreement on further actions and probably appoint someone to spearhead things for us. As it is we are all writing many posts in general agreement with each other, but with no formal direction.


Anyone else agree? If to meet we will need suggestions as to where and when...?


Cheers

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

I agree with both of you. As I said on Monday we need to start taking definite steps to consolidate otherwise we are going to get caught out with time.


Is there a competent French speaker out there who will be attending the LFDS meeting and is willing to report back?

Blotch41210.4748263889

We are owners of B01 at LFDS and bought in early 2011 from a divorcing couple so are relative newcomers. We have watched this site with interest. Our rationale in buying was that most overseas holiday home owners who are working only tended to use their properties personally for 3 1/2 weeks pa and the leaseback system made good sense from personal usage combined with long term modestly rising income.We did some research on the second hand leaseback market and we visited a number of properties on offer through P&V. local agents etc. in the locality. Samoens won hands down on every count and our experience up until sauvegarde has been better than we expected with attentive service being given to replacing light bulbs and cracked downpipes. I have sympathy with those wishing to pay the VAT early but for us the rental potential is still a long term attraction. Has anyone approached any of the local agents such as Giffre Immobilier in Samoens to ascertain rental potential and the costs of their property management services? Someone suggested approaching rivals Odalys & P&V. My trouble is that my French is only O/A level and so would not be confident entering into such a business venture. I have emailed Jean Marc Dufresne and we would be happy to see anyone in LFDS from 12th to 19th January when we will be in our apartment.

I have just spend £25 postage on sending a letter to all UK owners from the

list (50 of them) and hopefully some of them that don't use the internet will

get in touch. I'll keep you up-to-date.

Apparently at the meeting last week, the owners were offered to receive 40%

of their previous rent. Obviously no-one has signed so far.

We can go for another management company, perhaps a local one with less

heavy overheads, but 70% of us need to agree..... Apparently it has been

done, in other residences.

Submitted by amjdxb on

Brigitte,


Well you can count me in the group who will NOT accept a 60% reduction!


Thanks for your efforts trying to round up the 'missing' owners.


Cheers

Hi everyone,


I agree with the general trend in this forum. i also agree with blotch and others that we need to take action at this stage.


Am i right in saying that we still dont have anyone of the owner goup attending the meeting on the 13th? If that is the case then should we not engage with jean marc dufresne to attend on our behalf. Or if we do have an owner attending, then i would be happy to donate towards their cost of travel. It would be great/essential if they were bilingual. Brigitte is that an option for you?


We will need to get correct information from this meeting and then put an action plan together sharpish. i live in ireland but would be happy to travel to the UK (near an airport if poss) for a weekend meeting post the 13th nov.

Submitted by Claire on

Hi everyone


Thank you Bridget for contacting everyone.


We to think it is important that a fluent french speaker attends the paris meeting, and if he is willing Jean Marc Dufresne sounds a good idea as he is an owner, or if anyone has any other people to recommend?


Shall we put this too him , and cover his expenses between us ?


A meeting in the UK is going to be very important after feedback from the paris meeting. I suggest a central location soon after , how about sunday 18th or 25th november ? middle of the day ?


We can then make plans, depending on the outcome of the paris meeting, and possibly agree to instruct a solicitor between us if needed. We have had some prices for this. By then we could have done some basic research on other management companies etc .


I am happy to arrange this if I have an idea where people would prefer ?






Claire, a meeting in the UK afterwards would be good, good idea.

Jean Marc Dufresne is going to the meeting anyhow, for his own benefit if

nothing else, and to try to speak to other owners.

Apparently, this is the type of thing that apparently happens at the

meeting in Paris, according to an owner of another residence that Jean

Marc Dufresne is in touch with:

I quote (translated):

"The meeting of 13/11 is a con."

"they will explain why you need to sign the endorsements. Their goal is

not to negotiate but to make you sign. They will explain the crisis, the

difficulties of the residences. It's a safe bet that you will see Toumieux,

Lecci, Bortolotti, Abitbol or his assistant Dobelle."

"They will tell you that if you do not sign they will be forced to close your

home in December which would be detrimental to the winter season, it is

really in your best interest, they think of you and protect your interests etc

etc ..."

"And it works: 2 or 3 owners had started to sign. Once the first

endorsements are signed (10 are enough), the others end up following

and then they increase the pressure to obtain the majority of signatures."

"We boycotted the meeting: only a representative of our association was

there. I do not regret it. Nobody had signed their outrageous proposal."

"To the extent that you have not met other owners, this meeting will be of

help for you find new owners. This is its only benefit."

We need to try to avoid this scenario in Samoens! I hope we manage.

a letter has been sent by me to all the les fermes de samoens owners in ireland today that havent already sent their email details on. this adds another 14 to the database.

Submitted by Petjan on

Hi all,


Only just been able to log back on to this forum ... was blocked out last week.


Just want to extend our thanks to Brigitte, and Brigitte, do please keep a tally on what this is costing you so we can contribute. We also recieved your letter today, and we will be in touch soon.


We are also available on 18th or 25th. If we are struggling house wise with a suitably central location, we could consider an appropriately based service station with something like a 'Costa' / 'Starbucks' that has plenty of seating and wifi ... or if anyone knows a quietish large pub near to motorway/main road, maybe even with a separate room we could book. ?.


Jane

Dear All,


We are new to this site, thanks to the letter sent by Brigitte.


(Thank-you Brigitte, we had no knowledge of this site but are delighted with the information and realisation that we are not alone in this predictament with LFDS).


We have been owners of a chalet in Gentaine block (G1) from the outset and rely heavily on the income to pay back the mortgage. Unaware of how to reach out to other owners we have already set up a prelimarly meeting with the solicitor who completed the conveyancing several years ago; along with a colleague of hers who has been a avocat in the french legal system. This is to get a feel for the options but we would be very keen to be part of any joint action, not least to keep legal costs down and provide a strong position on which to negiotate.


We would be keen to join any future meeting in the UK and I will email Brigitte separately with all our contact details.


Thanks


Mark and Sarah


Submitted by Daley on

Hi,


<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


A quick message for Justme.



I am an owner at Les Fermes de Samoens and have just come across this site having received a few days ago my letter from Soderev.



I am very interested to join a group action, as having suffered this problem on two other leasebacks strongly believe that a solid and unified group with legal representation is the only way to proceed with any chance of success.



I have been trying to send my details to Justme via PM, but keep getting the message rejected as your PM mail box is full. Any chance you could empty some messages so that I can get my details to you and added on to the group list for LFDS.



Thanks

Submitted by amjdxb on

Dear All,


I've been out of the loop the last week or so travelling on business. I've just quickly tried to bring myself back up to speed and it looks to me like we have this M. Dufresne offering to represent us all in thefight with Soderev. I believe the pouvoir he sent out relates to his offer to represent us at the Paris meeting in a couple of weeks time. We've also taken (free) advice from Fabien Cordiez who has offered his services to us, but I think on an individual basis. I also hear of a few who have been using their own solicitors/lawyers, possibly UK based.


If we're going with legal representation at this time we should maybe agree on one party to represent us all and agree on a split of fees...?? This is surely one of the most important things we can agree together.


Does anyone else feel a coordinated legal representation for all FDS owners is needed and if so, do we need it at this stage or can we wait till after the Paris meeting with Soderev when we can get our game plan organised?? I am loathed to personally sign someone up now to represent me at the Paris meeting if we have not all agreed this is the correct party for us all.


I await further thoughts and comments.


Cheers

Submitted by Daley on

Hi Everyone,<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



I am very new to the group having only joined the Forum on Thursday.



I am lucky enough (note of sarcasm!!) to be the owner of three leaseback properties, all of which have had problems to varying degrees with the developer (build quality issues) and the management companies either just doing a runner with the cash or declaring financial difficulties.



Of these three developments, the only one to date which is (I hope) pretty much resolved now is Les Jardins D’Elisa (Beausoleil). For this to be achieved a large group of the owners joined together and successfully formed a strong action group to stand up against the management companies (yes more than one, including the court appointed entities), and the courts etc. The group benefitted from having some owners who were from a legal background, french speaking etc, but all of which were extremely dedicated to resolving the problems on behalf of the whole group. We were also represented and advised by a local French Lawyer (Patrice Cipre Avocat Associé, from Nice) at pretty much all stages, including ensuring our claims for owed rents etc were properly lodged in French to the courts. The benefit of acting as a group was that the group leaders obtained effectively discounted rates for each step of the process from the lawyer (i.e. bulk purchase). As an example back in 2009 Patrice Cipre charged each group member 119,6 Euros VAT included to prepare and file our claims for lost rent. Please note that this is not an easy process and on Jardins D’Elisa having resolved the management company issue by appointing Odaly, the owners still having problems getting paid regularly and the action group is still fully engaged in trying to sort out build quality issues and the syndicate.



Anyway, in summary having experienced this painful process on Les Jardins D’Elisa, I would strongly advocate that the owners form a united group with a selected and agreed number of representatives who are willing and able to dedicate the time to pushing this process. A good French lawyer is agreed upon and a ‘fighting fund’ is established and chipped into by all the members of the group. I would also expect that the lawyer would serve notice on Soderev that the group would seek to recover our costs from them.



With regards to the timing of the appointment of the lawyer, the sooner the better. A couple of hours for a lawyer to attend the November meeting and brief / advise us all afterwards will really not cost each of us much if we act as a group with a single legal representative. It will also send a very firm signal to Soderev that we are a united group of owners who are taking this matter seriously.


Submitted by Steve L on

Amjdxb,


M. dufresne is not offering to represent you, his e-mail states if you know someone who is going you can get them to represent you- he may be willing to do so but thats what it says. Many of us did not receive a pouvoir with the original letter which was supposed to be attached so it is helpful that he sent it. Does anyone know who is going? As far as I know M dufresne was depositing the articles of his association today with the authorities so the momentum seems to be with their lawyer.

In my view, seeing that we live all over the country, I am not sure many

people would get together for a physical meeting, but if you think you can

get it together, how about using the functionality in the Yahoo Group to ask

people what they want to do (there is a voting functionality for example).

How about a conference call instead ? I can ask the question on the Yahoo

Group and if enough people are interested I'll set it up.

I am around to discuss on the phone too.

Submitted by lpanes on

Happy to attend a meeting on either date - I only had 3 yes answers to

this proposal in September so hope that more will agree this time.

I do not understand fully what Jean Marc is proposing doing for us as

the letter and pouvoir is complicated.

I would like an English speaking representative and an Anglo/ French

lawyer who can issue reports that make sense as Google translations

are not clear when dealing with legal matters.

Submitted by Sam1 on


Hi,


We also have a property in Samoens and my wife who is French is attending the meeting on the 13th so I am happy to pass on any information. I have emailed Bridgette with our details as I think to stand any chance of a reasonable outcome for the owners an action group will be required.

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

I am loving the emergence of the French/English speakers. I have spent so much time on Google translate recently I am now fluent in Pigeon!


It goes to show that this group has a fine and wide collection of talents and skills. This talent pool is still growing and can only be to our benefit.

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

With all the various mention of 50% and 70% in various discussions does this mean percentage of leaseholders or percentage of properties on site including classic? This could make a real difference to the outcome eg if 70% of the properties need to be retained within the leaseback scheme for it to remain a tourist residence what percentage are currently classic? How far away are we from this figure anyway?


As any decision made by the leaseholders has a direct impact on the classic owners should they not be allowed an associate status for any group formed ?

Submitted by amjdxb on

So, dealing firstly with the meeting in Paris next week, M. Dufresne is going and, if I understand correctly, willing to attend on behalf of a number of owners, but in order for him formally to able to do that we need to sign the pouvoir appointing him....?? If we do sign that do we send it to him alone or do Soderev, or their receiver, need to have a copy as well?? Anyone know the exact details of this matter? I'm being a bit dumb here.


Once he and other owners (going in their own capacity and right) have been we will presumably get a report back as to the nature of the discussions and the bad news about the level of rent reduction our mates at Soderev think we will accept. Does anyone know the time limit we will have to respond to that? Do we have to wait on them formally (in writing) giving us the details or will they consider their obligation discharged through the vehicle of this owners meeting?


Given that there is this rumoured threat of immediate unilateral cancellation of the leases by Soderev if we do not accept a sudden rent reduction, presumably they are expecting a very quick response to any new offer they make. Does French law allow them to force a quick decision upon us all, does anyone know? Given the slow speed of every other matter pertaining to this issue I'd be inclined to treat this quick response malarky they may be after with the disdain it probably deserves!


Then we have the issue of a joint meeting or discussion on the next plan of attack. We have not agreed between us if we need one and if so where and when. The Yahoo forum could be used to poll us all on that, however it still does not look like we have all the owners registered on there yet....!


Finally we have a formal association forming of (mainly French, I think) owners. Again, I'm being a bit dumb, but I am not 100% certain what are the aims of that and why it is needed right now. Perhaps someone could assist my understanding on all this.


Cheers

Submitted by amjdxb on

Just to provide some further update for everyone on possible 'missing owners'. I bought my property through an agent in Dubai. I was one of many who did that. I have finally managed to track down the owner of the agency here who says he will provide me next week with a list of people he sold to. Hopfully that will draw a few more stragglers into the forum and association.

It would have a lot of advantages if everyone could be on the Yahoo Group.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/lfds/

please join it if you havent' done so already.

Advantages are:

- no spying by lawyers from the opposition

- ability to gather all information in one place

- communicating more easily with each other (we have contacts of 73 so far,

it is no longer possible individually)

- everyone can add documents, questions, anything useful

To answer AMJ, if you look at the survey on the Yahoo Group, at least 4 of

us are attending the Paris meeting, including Jean Marc and myself.

We have been asking people to give the lawyer, Mr Pouderoux, a mandate

to represent us. The more mandates he has, the better. It is imperative

that he is at the meeting to be able to negotiate in the best possible

conditions, he needs to see what is going on, speak to various people

from the administrators and from Soderev.

That representation would not cost more than 100 euros each, and if all

of us agree probably less in the end.

The document is on the Yahoo Group, under files, called Mandate to

Lawyer.

Please look at everything on the Group carefully, and for any questions

ask, and then take action.

Hope that helps.

Submitted by amjdxb on

Finlay (and Brigitte), I'm already on the Yahoo forum. I just posted here as my attempts to post questions on Yahoo didn't seem to work for some reason. I'll try again.


Happy for someone to represent me next week and will fill out the pouvoir. Just wondered if Soderev need to see that as well..?

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

I am glad that it's not just me. Brigitte I still cannot see my questions that you kindly posted for me or the add records tab. Apologies. I am probably being really thick.


My questions stemmed on wanting more info on the lawyer . Why was this person approached? What's his background? Does he have experience in these matters if so where and for whom?If I can get satisfactory answers to these matters then I will join the association.

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

OK have just got loads of info on the Yahoo site. Questions listed and answered under database. Big thank you again Brigette

Submitted by Blotch (not verified) on

Any legal bods out there - can you tell me if the Act of 22nd July 2009 (2009-888) hasbeen applied retrospectively?

Submitted by Justme on

I have also had contact from him. I didn't understand why we needed to

have such a formal set up - can you expand. Is it because if all 160

owners sign up and pay the €500/600 he will be holding a vey sizeable

sum?

Submitted by t5max on

Hi,

I wish you well with your battle, Something that you

should perhaps be aware of with regard to the possible

legal battle ahead.

I am currently part of an organised group who have been

at war with a management company, developer and indeed

the original leaseback selling agents for the past 6+

years and I can tell you it's been a serious up-hill and

very expensive legal battle with very slow progress.

Unfortunately Leaseback has has been a complete disaster

for thousands of people.

Best of luck going forward but be prepared for long and

expensive battle if going the legal route,

RM

Formal set up or not, what do you propose?

I am also very reluctant to pay any money to anyone.

What I think is as follows:

SODEREV has a very easy task contacting us individually and from what I

read what happened in other residences, will put a lot of pressure on us to

sign something quickly, giving us a very short deadline.

The offer is likely to be about 50% of current rents, but not only that, it

will mean paying most of all of the charges (currently taken care of)

ourselves. Apparently this is often overlooked by owners who quickly sign

these agreements.

The more owners sign these agreements, the less negotiating power the

rest of the owners have to achieve something better.

Also, as this is quite a routine process that Soderev is pulling again and

again, there are people out there (lawyers, and owners of other

apartments) who know the modus operandi (the way of operating) of

Soderev.

Having someone or a group able to contact all of us is of a clear benefit to

negotiate with Soderev. These companies count on a divisive and very

slow reaction to impose anything on us.

So, that's my two pennies' worth.

I am open to any suggestions.

Translation of letter received today:

Hope it helps!

Samoens owners, please give me your email addresses!

As you know. by a judgment dated 28 september 2012, the Commercial

Court of Paris has opened a backup procedure on behalf of the company

Soderev TOUR - 19 rue d'Antin, 75002 PARIS, has designated me LELOUP-

THOMAS-SELAFA MJA - CS 10023 - 102, rue du Faubourg Saint Denis

75479 PARIS CEDEX 10 Quality of Attorney and Judicial myself in quality

Judicial Administrator with supervisory functions.

This procedure introduced recently (2005) in French law is to freeze the

liabilities of a company that anticipates Economic and Financial

Difficulties, before any state of insolvency, to find any solution with its

partners to ensure its sustainability, in accordance with the negotiated

rights of its creditors and partners.

The company currently manages 31 Soderev TOUR residences, premieres

and after the explanations that I have been made by its general direction,

it can not, or can no longer, to market the lots you rent him a price levels

sufficient to cover its fixed costs, do its first rental charges.

Thus, it was indicated to me that the company undergoes Soderev TOUR

since two or three years a significant shortening of the duration of stays,

resulting in a decrease in the purchasing power of people, who seem

increasingly move destinations and products "low cost", at prices of stays

under and facilities through purchases last minute and promotions via the

internet.

In addition, the company also Soderev TOUR tells me he saw some

destinations to penetrate too many residences, such as the status of Rural

Revitalization Zone, thus creating a large supply of housing residences of

tourism and dilute the fact demand stays.

It follows, mechanically, lower selling prices while most expenses are

incompressible.

Beyond these considerations related to the tourism sector and Difficulties

in filling residences affice tariff, it is clear that the results of the company

Soderev October 31, 2011 appear are:

- A turnover of

- Total operating expenses

o the co-owners whose rents verses

o condominium charges do

o is a subtotal

• (or nearly 86% of total operating expenses)

- A result of operating loss

- A net loss of

On after the first information that I have made, the loss is expected to

worsen in 2012, reaching a deficit of about -3.5 million Euros.

For your information, it was set up an internet address (http://faq.fast-

page.org/), freely available or will be listed in a general way the technical

issues and / or legal.

In this context, and subject to a financial xxxysis that I strive to drive

since my appointment, it seems necessary and essential to initiate a

renegotiation of the terms of your commercial lease (being the main

expense item) being precise as other expense items can be difficult

Deeper manner of significant benefit in terms of staff salaries, supplies

energy and essential services to the exploitation of residences (bleaching,

telecom ...).

I ask that this was nevertheless of all expense items are xxxyzes, without

exception, to the efforts wherever possible.

The operating accounts of your residence will be provided at the

information meeting that I propose to organize among the general

direction of the company Soderev TOUR members of your residence and

myself, to which I ' have the honor to invite the:

Tuesday 13 november 2012 - 16.30 - ibis Berthier, 163bis, avenue de

Clichy, 75017 Paris

To promote as much as possible the participation of owners in the

meeting that I organized, I precise that if you can not be present, you may

be represented by your spouse, any owner of the same residence, or by a

lawyer . Thank you, in this case, to fill the power contained in the room

and there joinder attached a photocopy of a piece of identity.

(unfortunately this document was not included in my letter!)

Submitted by amjdxb on

Okay, understand all that. Regarding this 'fighting fund' I don't have a problem throwing some money into the hands of a jointly appointed lawyer as long as its all proven genuine and as long as we have a clear plan as to what the lawyer intends to do for us and indeed what his fight is going to be about. If the matter is simply the rejection of any offer from Soderev that deviates negatively from the existing arrangements then I guess we can all do that individually. A lawyer will be needed mainly for the legal extraction of owners from current lease arrangements and into some other unit or association, which would (a) have to be legally recognised as the operating company for the development and (b) formed pretty quickly, I would imagine.


I suspect this meeting next month in Paris would just be about Soderev setting out their case to the owners and trying to 'sell us' on the idea of why rent reductions are necessary. Probably not important to attend. I cannot see what else they would be trying to do in that meeting. Or am I being too cynical???

Submitted by lpanes on

Thank you very much for translating this we were typing into word to

translate.

The website included in the letter states at question 10 that they will be

looking to renegotiate approx 50 % of the 31 residences leases run by

Soderev and if ours in one of them we will get receive further

amendments.

Well worth looking at the website it explains a lot of detail.

http://faq.fast-page.org/index_en.html

We are for joining up with the French but what is our group aim? To

maintain our current position, to get out of the lease with a new

management company to rent and run the residence to preserve the

vat status or to individually do our own thing and rent our properties

individually pay the vat back over the 3 years and find a management

company to maintain the properties only no reception or laundry?

Tthere has to be a consensus of opinions on the way forward to

understand the approach we are asking for our nominated

representative to propose.

We would have to pay 13/20ths of the vat back over 3 years = 28,800

euros 9,600 euros per year for 3 years.

We have one of the 3 storey properties they call a 'chalet' so vat was

44,000 euros.

I guess we wait and see if the reduction will apply to LFDS. I am

guessing it will apply as we haven't been advised our property is not

affected.

Submitted by Justme on

@ Finlay. Database is coming along. Had minor issue when I lost some

data but back on track now. Hope to email contacts out to each

residence this weekend. Unfortunately this has all coincided with my

busiest work time so already working 7 days a week has meant slow

progress so apologies for any delays. I will also respond to your pm

when I get 5!!

Pages