Irish and uk MEP fighting the cause of french lease back scam
I came across something on change.org
a women called Jennifer molphy contacted an Irish MEP Brian Hayes who has taking huge interest in this scam.there is also an uk MEP hopping on this also
Does anyone have Brian Hayes's email and a script outlining the details of the leaseback situation. I could send him in relation to the leaseback scam. I want to ask him for an update on progress he is making on the issue.
One or a group of lawyers should look into the contract that we all signed, to see if they are valid. We all signed a similar contract that only referred to, Article L-145, this was not explained, is also very vague and open to suggestion. We should have signed the contract with a Lawyer present and not only a ‘Notaire’, especially when buying in a foreign country and the contract is only in the language of that country.
Unfortunately we have all been miss led into buying these apartments, the banks, Notaires and sales people have already made their money. I think we have to look to the future and try to find out, if the contract which we all signed is valid?
We were involved in a company that had to go into ‘Sauvegarde’, this is a process where a company asks for help if they are in financial difficulty. The company went through the Commercial Judiciary process and we were all given a new contract to sign. A new clause (Article G) was added by the Judiciary stating very clearly the amount of Indemnity payment that was to be paid. This made the new contract, transparent and clear, stating how much was to be paid, if an Indemnity of eviction was to be issued.
This in turn made the old contract obsolete.
We need the Judiciary to look into the contracts signed by us, to see if it was Legal, Transparent and not misleading and new contract written overriding the old so that it is compliant with ‘European Law’. It should be done in a Joint effort and not an Individual basis.
This should be a straight forward procedure and should not take long for a competent Lawyer, who will act promptly on our behalf.
As the contract stands at the moment, you will never get out of the It unless you pay an Indemnity fee!
In some cases, it can be a significant sum of money.
My conclusion is that, all contracts should have a new clause added.
This action should be done collectively.
All of us should show support for the Vicky Ford investigation.
This is not a direct reply to the previous post which contains some good points with which I agree.
This is a general comment of how some leaseback purchasers believe that
- there will be some sort of general remedy/solution to the mess that most buyers have found themselves -mainly the enormous reduction in resale value and/or the non or reduced payment of rents.
- there was some sort of French government guarantee regarding the payment of rent.
There never was any government guarantee. AFAIK I have never seen in writing anything from any government source that could make anyone believe that there was any sort of "guarantee". This is not to say that those selling the properties may have used the word "guarantee" and gave the misleading impression that somehow the French government would guarantee payments. But even if those sales people did lie (and assuming that those sales companies still exist )can one prove it now 10-15 years later ?
Yes, the French government did approve of the scheme and allowed a VAT exemption . Maybe this is what confused people. But never never did any official French body "guarantee" rents- or even that any sales/property company would continue in business.
The purchase of our properties and the lease agreements was purely a private transaction between the buyer and the company/companies concerned.
Considering that in Ireland,U.K. and, I imagine, pretty well elsewhere in the civilised world , one uses a lawyer to advise on a property purchase I'm staggered that AFAIK nobody used a Franch lawyer who could explain all aspects of this purchase. I've asked the 40-odd Irish/Brits in my development if they did use a French ;legal experts service .None of them did.
It's no use complaining that one didnt understand this or that section of a contract ,or the various laws that the contract referred to. It was crazy to continue with the purchase without knowing. One would never do that in ireland UK etc. Why did we do it with the French pourchase. Do we all have fluent French and a knowledge of French commercial law?
I cant believe that ,after having bought property in Ireland UK and USA ,always using the services of a local lawyer -I went ahead after one of those sales meetings and signed up for it.
Having said all that -yes there is a need to investigate how French property companies offered enticing rental contracts which after a few years in some cases -and nearly all cases after the first lease stopped or reduced payments. But it will be difficult and it will take ages to prove there was deliberate fraud. And ven if this was proven in certain cases then the French courtds woukld have to go after those particular companies. there won't be a blanket punishment. And more important there will never be any sort of of blanket compensation.
Anyway that's my opinion.
I repeat - his tirade is not concerned with a particular post. It's a grumpy old many cursing his purchasing decision and realising that it was his own fault and there's little that can be done about it. except -as shown by some posters - fight collectively against any nasty decison by the company renting the property.Plus, of course, exchange info on how to do that. I've no hope in politicians doing anything.
I would agree with much of what Nick says above. However although there was never a guarantee from French governments, many operators used the threat of forcing owners out of commercial lease and possible huge purchase-TVA payback as an excuse for non-payment of rent and force owners to amend lease with large rent reductions.
The link between purchase-TVA clawback and commercial lease had to end as many leasebacks began to fail in 2008.
Changes to law in 2010 allowed owners maintain their leaseback-lmnp tax status with no TVA payback once they signed 1 year rental contracts with operator. Follow on law change in 2015 reducing numbers in resport with leaseback-lmnp tax status from 70% to 55% also helped.
This change was a great help to many owners who had opertunity of exiting original commercial leases and allowed them to just sign simple yearly contract and still remain in leaseback-lmnp status.
However most owners still stuck in original commercial leases and in my view misselling is not what focus of politician / petitions etc should be focussed on. Instead owner should be given the right to exit commercial lease early or at a minimum exit at end of term without compenstaion paid to operator.
I have listened to the radio report and yes she is saying all the things that leaseback owners want to hear - scam, duped, conned etc - What everyone has to realise is the speed the EU parliment works at - snails pace - and even if they order the French government do investigate I would not be surprised if the French just stick two fingers at them or as nornal give a gallic shrug - if anything does come of all these well meaning efforts I will be very pleased but somewhat surprised - we are not going to get a quick fix on this debacle 10 -15 years so if you are hoping that these efforts will somehow release you from the French Commercial code regarding leasebacks then I am afraid you are in for a rather large disappointment
I agree with wineflair. You are the people affected by French Leasebacks. While it is nice to hear sympathetic words from politicians, it is up to the owners to salvage something from their situation. If I may re-quote Juanazur ... Never agree to a rent reduction.
I recently sold my leaseback at a loss of course. I was of the opinion that dealing with a bank debt was easier than dealing with multiple property problems, tax returns, new contracts and refurbishment costs.
There are sales of leasebacks but they will continue to be sold at a loss until there is an end to the unrealistic campaign to seek compensation/ change the law/punish the sellers etc etc.
The bad publicity affects the value of all leaseback properties, even those that don't have such a bad history of no/vastly reduced rents and/or dodgy mngt companies .
Slowly but surely , due to the actions of owners -often helped by good advice on websites such as this - many leaseback properties are now seeing a regular rent.
Also, within a few years we -or anyone who buys from us - won't have to worry about repaying VAT if one decides not to rent on a short-term tourist basis with various requirements.
Considering that there is no interest to be earned from banks the fact is many leasehold properties at their present rental income earn a comparitively high rate of return.
Yes, there are leaseback property owners that are still having problems with the mngt companies . There's a lot that are not.
But no owner will ever get a decent sales price whilst the whingers keep loudly moaning.
Nick, people are 'whinging' because they are being screwed by French crooks...what a selfish post...perhaps they should stay quiet because it affects your resale value. Even some of the so-called well performing ones are screwing owners for refurb costs.
If selfish means self-interest then, fine , I'm being selfish. I don't believe it is in my interest for this campaign to continue in its present form. Nor will it benefit many leaseback owners - indeed, it will ensure that our resale
value will remain low.
If it is being selfish to wish to avoid a continuing fall in the value of my property (which may be the result of continuing bad publicity)then so be it-I'm selfish.
On another note I don't understand your comment about refurbishment costs. Is it not the norm in any country for owners ,as landlords, to pay for much of the refurb and repairs? Usually this would be clarified in some detail in the lease agreements.
It most leases it states that the property is to be handed back to you in the state that it was at the beginning of the lease. I have researched one of the main players in Leaseback and I hav calculated that their refurb costs could eat up one year's rent....it is "the norm" for the owner to refurb the property themselves in a typical lease...but this is not a typical lease as the management company seem to control refurb costs and put their own line of furniture in and you cannot decide what goes in yourself..so it is 100% not the norm! Property prices will continue to fall if people like you keep propping up French crooks as they will continue to slice the rent...this campaign is one way out of this nightmare...force the Frebch authorities to cancel these scam-based leases and let property owners own their property on a proper freehold basis with no lease attached to scare off buyers. There are much more saleable if they have no lease attached to them...I know this from first hand experience as i sold mine without a lease. You are selfish and you are blind to the big picture. The people who have launched this campaign are doing a huge amount of work for people who are being screwed and you are trying to undermine them.
All getting very personal - just a note - returned from France yesterday - whilst there I visted my bank to renegotiate a new mortgage deal - to my horror, although not unexpected, they basically stated that the delevopment I am in "Has lots of problems with the management Company" they had already repossessed 4 properties, in fact they offered me a two bedroom appartment for 30,000 Euros - yes 30,000 Euros - Basically they said that leaseback properties were toxic, the house would have to be revalued - downwards - and they would be very reticent in offering a new mortgage - Not good news for all concerned but thats the state of things at the moment and will remain so until this scam has been sorted out - in saying that the scam is going on at the present time with Companies still offering leasebacks as an investment - so all the bad publicity is not making any inroads at all - I seriously thisnk that any resolution is at least 10-20 years down the line
Vous devez vous inscrire ou vous connecter pour accéder à d'autres forums.
English
Français
She is doing reat work, I also contacted Brian Hayes and he actually called me back. He is working on exposing this scam.
Does anyone have Brian Hayes's email and a script outlining the details of the leaseback situation. I could send him in relation to the leaseback scam. I want to ask him for an update on progress he is making on the issue.
Tks.
Leaseback Contracts - Indemnity of Eviction
One or a group of lawyers should look into the contract that we all signed, to see if they are valid. We all signed a similar contract that only referred to, Article
L-145, this was not explained, is also very vague and open to suggestion. We should have signed the contract with a Lawyer present and not only a ‘Notaire’, especially when buying in a foreign country and the contract is only in the language of that country.
Unfortunately we have all been miss led into buying these apartments, the banks, Notaires and sales people have already made their money. I think we have to look to the future and try to find out, if the contract which we all signed is valid?
We were involved in a company that had to go into ‘Sauvegarde’, this is a process where a company asks for help if they are in financial difficulty. The company went through the Commercial Judiciary process and we were all given a new contract to sign. A new clause (Article G) was added by the Judiciary stating very clearly the amount of Indemnity payment that was to be paid. This made the new contract, transparent and clear, stating how much was to be paid, if an Indemnity of eviction was to be issued.
This in turn made the old contract obsolete.
We need the Judiciary to look into the contracts signed by us, to see if it was Legal, Transparent and not misleading and new contract written overriding the old so that it is compliant with ‘European Law’. It should be done in a Joint effort and not an Individual basis.
This should be a straight forward procedure and should not take long for a competent Lawyer, who will act promptly on our behalf.
As the contract stands at the moment, you will never get out of the It unless you pay an Indemnity fee!
In some cases, it can be a significant sum of money.
My conclusion is that, all contracts should have a new clause added.
This action should be done collectively.
All of us should show support for the Vicky Ford investigation.
This is not a direct reply to the previous post which contains some good points with which I agree.
This is a general comment of how some leaseback purchasers believe that
- there will be some sort of general remedy/solution to the mess that most buyers have found themselves -mainly the enormous reduction in resale value and/or the non or reduced payment of rents.
- there was some sort of French government guarantee regarding the payment of rent.
There never was any government guarantee. AFAIK I have never seen in writing anything from any government source that could make anyone believe that there was any sort of "guarantee". This is not to say that those selling the properties may have used the word "guarantee" and gave the misleading impression that somehow the French government would guarantee payments. But even if those sales people did lie (and assuming that those sales companies still exist )can one prove it now 10-15 years later ?
Yes, the French government did approve of the scheme and allowed a VAT exemption . Maybe this is what confused people. But never never did any official French body "guarantee" rents- or even that any sales/property company would continue in business.
The purchase of our properties and the lease agreements was purely a private transaction between the buyer and the company/companies concerned.
Considering that in Ireland,U.K. and, I imagine, pretty well elsewhere in the civilised world , one uses a lawyer to advise on a property purchase I'm staggered that AFAIK nobody used a Franch lawyer who could explain all aspects of this purchase. I've asked the 40-odd Irish/Brits in my development if they did use a French ;legal experts service .None of them did.
It's no use complaining that one didnt understand this or that section of a contract ,or the various laws that the contract referred to. It was crazy to continue with the purchase without knowing. One would never do that in ireland UK etc. Why did we do it with the French pourchase. Do we all have fluent French and a knowledge of French commercial law?
I cant believe that ,after having bought property in Ireland UK and USA ,always using the services of a local lawyer -I went ahead after one of those sales meetings and signed up for it.
Having said all that -yes there is a need to investigate how French property companies offered enticing rental contracts which after a few years in some cases -and nearly all cases after the first lease stopped or reduced payments. But it will be difficult and it will take ages to prove there was deliberate fraud. And ven if this was proven in certain cases then the French courtds woukld have to go after those particular companies. there won't be a blanket punishment. And more important there will never be any sort of of blanket compensation.
Anyway that's my opinion.
I repeat - his tirade is not concerned with a particular post. It's a grumpy old many cursing his purchasing decision and realising that it was his own fault and there's little that can be done about it. except -as shown by some posters - fight collectively against any nasty decison by the company renting the property.Plus, of course, exchange info on how to do that. I've no hope in politicians doing anything.
excuse typos.Written in haste.
I would agree with much of what Nick says above. However although there was never a guarantee from French governments, many operators used the threat of forcing owners out of commercial lease and possible huge purchase-TVA payback as an excuse for non-payment of rent and force owners to amend lease with large rent reductions.
The link between purchase-TVA clawback and commercial lease had to end as many leasebacks began to fail in 2008.
Changes to law in 2010 allowed owners maintain their leaseback-lmnp tax status with no TVA payback once they signed 1 year rental contracts with operator. Follow on law change in 2015 reducing numbers in resport with leaseback-lmnp tax status from 70% to 55% also helped.
This change was a great help to many owners who had opertunity of exiting original commercial leases and allowed them to just sign simple yearly contract and still remain in leaseback-lmnp status.
However most owners still stuck in original commercial leases and in my view misselling is not what focus of politician / petitions etc should be focussed on. Instead owner should be given the right to exit commercial lease early or at a minimum exit at end of term without compenstaion paid to operator.
Never going to happen in out lifetime!!!
Hi.
Just listened to this radio report by Justine McCarthy.
https://www.rte.ie/news/player/2017/0530/21180865-i-am-the-owner-of-a-pr...
Denis,
would be interested in hearing Justine McCarthy but your link is not bringing me into piece !
Harry
I have listened to the radio report and yes she is saying all the things that leaseback owners want to hear - scam, duped, conned etc - What everyone has to realise is the speed the EU parliment works at - snails pace - and even if they order the French government do investigate I would not be surprised if the French just stick two fingers at them or as nornal give a gallic shrug - if anything does come of all these well meaning efforts I will be very pleased but somewhat surprised - we are not going to get a quick fix on this debacle 10 -15 years so if you are hoping that these efforts will somehow release you from the French Commercial code regarding leasebacks then I am afraid you are in for a rather large disappointment
I agree with wineflair. You are the people affected by French Leasebacks. While it is nice to hear sympathetic words from politicians, it is up to the owners to salvage something from their situation. If I may re-quote Juanazur ... Never agree to a rent reduction.
I recently sold my leaseback at a loss of course. I was of the opinion that dealing with a bank debt was easier than dealing with multiple property problems, tax returns, new contracts and refurbishment costs.
I think you were wise Nico701. I didn't think it would be possible in the current climate to sell a leaseback even at a loss?
There are sales of leasebacks but they will continue to be sold at a loss until there is an end to the unrealistic campaign to seek compensation/ change the law/punish the sellers etc etc.
The bad publicity affects the value of all leaseback properties, even those that don't have such a bad history of no/vastly reduced rents and/or dodgy mngt companies .
Slowly but surely , due to the actions of owners -often helped by good advice on websites such as this - many leaseback properties are now seeing a regular rent.
Also, within a few years we -or anyone who buys from us - won't have to worry about repaying VAT if one decides not to rent on a short-term tourist basis with various requirements.
Considering that there is no interest to be earned from banks the fact is many leasehold properties at their present rental income earn a comparitively high rate of return.
Yes, there are leaseback property owners that are still having problems with the mngt companies . There's a lot that are not.
But no owner will ever get a decent sales price whilst the whingers keep loudly moaning.
Nick, people are 'whinging' because they are being screwed by French crooks...what a selfish post...perhaps they should stay quiet because it affects your resale value. Even some of the so-called well performing ones are screwing owners for refurb costs.
If selfish means self-interest then, fine , I'm being selfish. I don't believe it is in my interest for this campaign to continue in its present form. Nor will it benefit many leaseback owners - indeed, it will ensure that our resale
value will remain low.
If it is being selfish to wish to avoid a continuing fall in the value of my property (which may be the result of continuing bad publicity)then so be it-I'm selfish.
On another note I don't understand your comment about refurbishment costs. Is it not the norm in any country for owners ,as landlords, to pay for much of the refurb and repairs? Usually this would be clarified in some detail in the lease agreements.
It most leases it states that the property is to be handed back to you in the state that it was at the beginning of the lease. I have researched one of the main players in Leaseback and I hav calculated that their refurb costs could eat up one year's rent....it is "the norm" for the owner to refurb the property themselves in a typical lease...but this is not a typical lease as the management company seem to control refurb costs and put their own line of furniture in and you cannot decide what goes in yourself..so it is 100% not the norm! Property prices will continue to fall if people like you keep propping up French crooks as they will continue to slice the rent...this campaign is one way out of this nightmare...force the Frebch authorities to cancel these scam-based leases and let property owners own their property on a proper freehold basis with no lease attached to scare off buyers. There are much more saleable if they have no lease attached to them...I know this from first hand experience as i sold mine without a lease. You are selfish and you are blind to the big picture. The people who have launched this campaign are doing a huge amount of work for people who are being screwed and you are trying to undermine them.
All getting very personal - just a note - returned from France yesterday - whilst there I visted my bank to renegotiate a new mortgage deal - to my horror, although not unexpected, they basically stated that the delevopment I am in "Has lots of problems with the management Company" they had already repossessed 4 properties, in fact they offered me a two bedroom appartment for 30,000 Euros - yes 30,000 Euros - Basically they said that leaseback properties were toxic, the house would have to be revalued - downwards - and they would be very reticent in offering a new mortgage - Not good news for all concerned but thats the state of things at the moment and will remain so until this scam has been sorted out - in saying that the scam is going on at the present time with Companies still offering leasebacks as an investment - so all the bad publicity is not making any inroads at all - I seriously thisnk that any resolution is at least 10-20 years down the line