Residhotel (Rhode Tourisme)

John,

I asked the same questions in 2004 to my vendor and got the same answers as you... same comments.

Yes, it is a missleading case for sure. Contact a lawyer.

PS: you shouldn't have accepted the changes of contracts (week reduction).

Yes Jaward

Nothing like the smell of a fresh kill to bring out the vultures.

There seems to be loads of these "assist companies" that are coming out of the woodwork to rescue us downtrodden leaseback owners with problems!

Pity they wern't around with " words of wisdom" before we bought!

John

Dear all,

My partner and I have recently founded a company to assist property investors. NERC Concierge Ltd was set up to assist British and Irish investors in the management of their French property portfolios. We formed the company having identified the need within the investors market to help them understand, manage and control their own personal investments. We understand that buying property is not only a substantial financial commitment but also a long term temporal one. It was with this in mind that they decided to create a company that is dedicated to providing professional, independent guidance and advice to Irish investors who have bought French property.

Regards,

Eddy Regnier
(no general marketing allowed - although you may reply directly to a post on a directly related topic)

I think its time to wake up and smell the coffee,the contracts which have been signed are not worth the paper they are written on,indeed the only people they favour are the management compnay who can do what they like

The only way forward is legal action,swift and ruthless and get to the core of the problem,howere,lets face it the French legal system is as flawed as the contracts to dont hold your breath.

If you are lucky enough to win then again dsont hold your breath for any money,I have command de payer,attachment to bank accounts etc and eviction alllegally binding...have I seen any money yet..not a chance.

As for leaseback I can tell you its going to get much worse before it gets better,my advice is to evict and form a co op whilst managing all bank accounts yourself.

Not too long and I should have three companies bankrupt,jobs business and personal assets.....oh and hopefully a criminal investigation

One day I will wake up feeling good about all this I promise

Noel,

The number of weeks hasn't changed,the period which you can take them has!

They have shrunk the season by four weeks,no doubt to save on costs!.Even though they have a permanent manager living on site!

As for the original claim,that owners could use appartments all year round,has proved to be untrue!This was in the selling agents promotional material but probably not in the lease!

Regards

John

John,

The reference to contracts being in the purchaser's language came from the Timeshare Directive so I'm not sure whether it is possible to apply it in our situation.

Regards

Sheridan

Thanks John for your quick reply.

However it looks like a change of the contract's terms and conditions So they should have let you know well in advance those information & changes by registered letter

Srunner,

I havn't accepted any changes!It came in this years booking form.

In previous years there had been 4 weeks in low season,now that is down to 1 week.Which means you cant have 2 weeks together without using 1 of your high season weeks.

As stated on my previous post,Assetz paperwork states that owners can use there appartment at "anytime".

Sheridan

You mentioned before that it was illegal for them(seller) not to present you with contracts in english.Mine was in French and suspect everybody else's is!

Would it also be illegal for them to continue communicating in French with ongoing contract matters?

Regards

John

As far as I can see, all these things are covered in Council Directive 93/13/EEC of 5 April 199 3 on unfair terms in consumer contracts:

"Whereas, generally speaking, consumers do not know the rules of law which, in Member States other than their own, govern contracts for the sale of goods or services; whereas this lack of awareness may deter them from diect transactions for the purchase of goods or services in another Member State."

"Whereas, the consumer must receive equal protection under contracts concluded by word of mouth and written contracts regardless, in the latter case, of whether the terms of the contract are contained in one or more documents."

Article 3

1. A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imabalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer."

Terms which may be regarded as unfair:

(j) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract.

(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract."

It would be interesting to get an opinion from a solicitor on this.

It is thru that many agencies never explained the total liability to their clients, but my experience in helping property owners in the past few years made me realise that there are many more persons in the same situation around and we only offer to give our opinion during a free consultation at first then assist you if you chose to. Basically just to try getting some solution to either avoid, cover or resolve the problems.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />Regards,

Eddy

Seamus

I have just been going through my french paperwork for the purchase of a leaseback in 2003!.

I bought through Assetz(formerly French Property sales) and in there Question and Answer format it states the following:

Main Terms of the Lease

Duration of lease; Usually 9-11 years

My comments:No mention of any compensation payments to management company and no mention of the 3,6,9 year break clause that we know exists!

Question:What happens at the end of the 9-11year lease?

My comments:Again no mention of exit penalty!

Answer: As the freehold owner you can choose to sell,use or rent out your property whenever you wish.Alternativley you can renew the lease with the management company.

Question:Who pays the bills during the 9-11 years:

Answer:The management company pays for the upkeep and maintenance of your appartment along with all the utility bills you would still have to pay the local "Tax Fonciere".

My comments:Again complete rubbish!On one of my leasebacks the co-op fees were over 1300 euros in 2008.Quite substantial!

Question:What happens during the times when the residence is closed(in between seasons):

Answer:At these times you can use your property in addition to your allocated but a small admin charge is applicable.

My comments:Again rubbish!You cannot use the appartment out of season and recently Odalys have reduced the early season weeks to 1 week from 4 weeks!So to holiday for 2 weeks in low season you have use 1 of your high season weeks!

These are major untruths or omissions,which would have had a major impact on my decision to buy!

A clear case of misselling!Don't you agree?

Regards

John

Capital gain? What capital gain??

How can anyone ever make a capital gain from this system which was supposed to be an asset but is in fact a huge liability. I have owned my leaseback for 5 years - property prices in the area have increased by 30% but because there is a cap of 2% in the lease, coupled with the fact that the true value of the property is always related to the yield, there is no chance of making a gain.

This year the management company offered me a truly derisory amount to market my property - very much below the price we paid 6 years ago and with extortionate commission to boot.

Hi,

Leaseback companies have
a staturoy right to claim damages from property owners in the event these decide not to renew the
lease beyond the initial 9 years period and subsequent renewed rental
periods. This is a statutory matter and leaseback companies cannot give it up in advance. Breaking a lease during the first 20 years
would not, in any event, be a good idea. It exposes you to likely tax penalties
i.e. partial repayment of the VAT rebate you benefited from. You may also have
to pay French CGT if you sell within 15 years.

So, if a leaseback company offers you a rent reduction against their undertaking not to seek compensation if you were to opt out of the scheme at the end of the initial rental period, don't be fooled: the answer simply is 'no'.

Angus

Noel

I think you missed this question previously - What was incorrect about the termination process of your management company and who is the management company?

Residhotel seem to be making a mess of their termination process at Golf Garden as some owners have received the bailiffs letter and some havn't and it may now be too late for the six month notice period.

Brian L

Dear all,

I have been in similar situation and I may tell you that every terms and conditions of business are included within the lease, t might hidden under some legal French but if something is not on the lease it cannot be enforced by either sides.
I have been assisted by a new company specialised in assisting French property invetors with their difficulties and I will suggest to contact them they may help you too. They are currently working on their website and email (as brand new) but you could contact them on nerc.concierge@live.ie

Chloe

Great thread guys keep it going.

Noel - my projections also say non contractural. However this was the only set of information given to me prior to signing a contractural reservation and paying a deposit. This who episode needs to be compared to the miss selling of endowments. Now do we all see the likeness?

I bought a new car at the weekend and was passed a brochure by the garage detailing the spec, heated seats, leather, 6 cd multichanger. This information was provided to me to make my decission on.

If I get my car and it does not have a 6 CD multichanger in, unless I have opted out of it and been told I will be very upset if it does not have one.

The sales figures issued should have had a declaration reading that figures may be different from development to development. Saying that the figures are non contractural will in no way alleviate the sales agents of their responsibility to inform me at the point of sale (point of sale being the payment of the deposit) if the information issued is incorrect and bears no relation to the product sold - and thats in the words of the person who sold me mine who has since been made redundant!

Paul

You are right: it is fraud and embezzlement.

Several really good & highly competent lawyers are working on the case in France. A lot of lawyers have been under high pressures as it is a national and international problem.

Several associations wrote to the government, some answers have been obtained but they are not sufficiant enought.

The press speaks about the Residence de Tourisme and the troubles, in UK and Irland you should contact them and send some info to them.

Sign the petition if you have not yet done it. http://www.petitiononline.com/131007/

I have advised this many times before and will do it again.

Find yourselves a good lawyer and hit them with ''Command de payer'' straight away or you may find yourselves without rent through the summer season like I did and theres nothing you can do apart from sit and beat yourself up over the fact someone is taking money off you in terms of renting an asset for which you pay.....Ouch!!!

It took from June to December for me to evict in which time I lost some 12,000 Euro and 5000 Euro legal fees which I have had to kiss goodbye!

Take my advice and get a good lawyer and one who at least 100 miles from your development

Wayne

PS dont expect payment if you get judgement,these crooks ignore the law!

Maybe I never explianed in detail

Step three took me 6-7 months to eviction with numerous court cases on the way which were delayed on a couple of times.

Commend de payer June expiry

Eviction 16th Decemeber

Wayne

for the Cap Bleu owner's : some French people have already started to fight please click on the "NOUS ECRIRE" on the right hand side of the page and ask for the contact details for the residence.

http://54270joel.free.fr/rechproprio.php

Paris meeting of the french leaseback associations : Date : march 14th, 9-12h am ; contacts : fedartsec@yahoo.fr ; 1 to 2 delegates by association. If you are isolated, please precise in order that we take you into account. The meeting room can take up o 60 peoples. all details will be sended on request.

Hi

Back again.

So yes you can ask the bailiff to deliver a Commandement de payer in group. It will be less expensive and will be more effective.

For Wayne: I agree with some of your points above but "Step three is the more complicated because the management company has the law and judges on their side.This took some 6 to 7 months just to go to court for the eviction hearing." Is not true.

Up to now in the Residence de Tourisme's court cases, it took between 1 month and 4 months (several cases: All the residence ex-LVR, the Residences in Lourdes & so on) - max of 6 months (Transmontagne & Residence Privilege).

Alan,
Our residence is getting together (as are many) and one of the owners took the initiative to contact a lawyer who happens to be the same one who has defended owners against RH several times already. He will depose a request (commandment de payer) in court in the names of each of the owners that wishes to take part in the action. So, yes it is individual in that each one has to take the step to associate themselves in the action. But it is colective in that the same lawyer will represent us at the same time. The link http://groups.google.fr/group/proprietairerh has a copy of the form for the mise en demeure letter as well as some other news. If you need more information the overblog is very well informed and if I can be of help just let me know. Good luck! Are you in contact with the other owners from your residence? There may already be an association that is being created.

I would like to be in contact with any of you who are owners at the residence Domaine de la Pinede in Prasmousquier (Cap Negre) . We are trying to organize ourselves. One of the owners has contacted a lawyer capable of filing a collective "commandment de payer".( The cost of this action is under 200euros) and who has already had great experience with RH. We are also trying to develop an up-to-date list of owners and their e-mails in order to create an owner's association,newsletter and a blog in both french and English. The general assembly should take place sometime around the month of March and we need to be ready! Thanks!

Hello, I am new to this forum and actually living in France and living throught the same problem as all of you. Before getting into the commandment de payer you need to serve RH with a registered letter (with accuse de reception) called a "mise en demeure". The format of this letter is available on the over-blog. You can send it via internet with the website of La Poste and print the receipt of the transaction.It is the first step in the process as mandatory for any further legal action. On the blog there is also information on how to go about trying to negotiate stopping the mortgage payments for those of you (like most of us) are draining their savings to pay the mortgage In the letter that we all received RH states that the rent won't be paid before 31 March but nothing says they will pay then! They are also quite clear that the payment of the rents is totally tied to the renegotiation of leases at certain sites. Courage!!

Hi Turlough,

I am a owner at Cap Blue and interested in a owners associaion.Getting in contact with Fabien to issue a 'commandement de payer'

Aidan.

Seamus,

Thanks for your reply and indeed I have learnt something about the bailiff which I was not aware of and which was never advised to me by my lawyer...even they are of questionable value apart from supporting the process.(Or was it hindering)

6% of outstanding rent...talk about everyone one but the rightfull owner getting paid handsomely is not the word

Step one issue proceedings for rent owed and the judge will award the amount owed and costs

Beware that you dont get your answer on the actual day of the hearing it normally takes three weeks

Bailiff has to deliver each judgement at a cost to you!

Step two after expiry of 30 days and none payment issue command de payer

Step three after 30 days of none payment issue summonds for eviction

Step three is the more complicated because the management company has the law and judges on their side.This took some 6 to 7 months just to go to court for the eviction hearing.

Step four obtain judgement for eviction and wait to see if settlement arrives before a pre defined date by the judge

Step five you obtain the eviction order and instruct the bailiff,this involve further costs and the bailiff is normally accompanied by the Police

Step six the management company logs an appeal within two weeks and the eviction is now back up in the air again

Step seven the appeal can take 6 to 12 months to come back to court,in the mean time you are in limbo.

Between evcition and appeal you have the right to rent your apartment as I do mine however beware that if an administration process starts before the appeal date is heard then you eviction is null and void and the administrator can apply to put you back on the original lease

The above is my actual experience and I have to say that French law is nothing more than a joke,I am indeed in limbo again and administrator can potentially take my apartment back onto the lease...unless of course...I put a three year lease on it to someone and he is then unable to take it back.However he can sue me for the losses incurred,mmm not sure how enforceable that would be!

Anyway I intend as do others to take this all the way and only by everyone bringing this up on forums will anything ever get done about it

My next move is to bankrupt all concerned in the process of miss selling,I dont care what it costs Im going to nail each and every crook involved.

My lease clearly states that should the management company miss one months rental then the I can evict without the need to go to court!!!!!

In reality this is total crap as Ive had to go to court and wait and wait and wait to get an eviction and my keys back....Now I have an appeal on my hands and am owed over 25k..someone with sense or even half a brain would tell the management company to to GFT and give you your keys but its not England but France!

So the lease isnt worth the paper its written on and French law or their justice system is flawed to say the least

Many agents and developers have made much money on these schemes..or was it scams..and legally in France they have done nothing wrong,in my eyes its nothing but fraud and embezzlement.

If it wasnt so serious it would be funny seeing them all go to the wall with the absence of the pound in years to come,trust me the British pound will speak volumes when they desert the French developers,agents and management companies in years to come.Bring it on lets see them all lose their incomes and investments like many Brits have had to.

Too many good people with the right attitude towards low risk investment have invested in this area only to be ruined by inappropriate advice and management companies who manipulate the law to their advantage without a care in the world for peoples livelyhoods.

Its sad to say but genuine people will be ruined by greedy unregulated filth that are involved in this whole scam.

I think its time the forums got together and organised a French and competent lawyer to take this whole issue up on a national level with both governments and to ruin these scam artists and all assosiated with it.Lets face it 1,000 peoples money would obtain a top lawyer with some clout to fight the overall case at whatever level was needed.

Harsh reply yes but its dog eat dog and the trailor park trash ripping us off belongs in the sewer with all the rest of the crap .

HI,

I am an Irish owner of a property in Cap Bleu and Resid Hotel have stopped paying rent, no rent received for last quarter 2008. As suggested by Frech Property Ireland I am interested in forming an owners association for Cap Bleu and writing to Resid Hotel demanding payment and perhaps looking at other solutions.

Anybody else from Cap Bleu interested?

Hi,

I have been given this forum address to all our clients
using Residhotel as a method of meeting up and finding a solution.
Ideally you should form an owners association with some legal
representation. Unfortunately, to those of you that asked me to send
you a list of owners that bought through French Property Ireland, this
is impossible due to our privacy policy but I have sent on this forum
address to clients so that you can make contact with each other this
way.

Deirdre
www.frenchpropertyaftersales.com

I would not touch any mediation company with a barge pole. From experience these are ex-agents who can no longer sell but know how the system works so create a new business.

If you look at the top of this site you will see a link to a Notiare of the name Fabien - he can be vouched for as a credible kind of guy.

Firstly get you command de payer put through and then you have a decission to make - either evict and rent yourself or go for administration leading to bankrutcy.

Your mortgage will have to be paid in the meantime.

Eviction may lead to balliff charges.

DO NOT WAIT OR HANG AROUND - DO IT NOW!

I am one of the owners from Jardin De Lisa so if you need any help feel free to add to the thread but no personal messages please as I seem to get bombarded (apologies to those I never reply too).

I will not charge you for advice (as that is not what I am giving) and secondly I will not try to strike a deal between your management company and you and take a cut of the profit the management company makes out of you for signing a reduced rent lease (oh dear another dead end created for yet another scam)!!!

My delight will come when the leaseback scheme is highlighted for the scam it is with no UK and Irish investors purchasing anymore and these people are out of our lives.

Mutley

Eddy

I cannot see what your company can do except act as a middleman between us and the unfair French legal system and charge us for the privilege. This invisible clause suits companies like yours and allows you to make money from it. If you were so concerned about the welfare of leaseback owners why didn't you come here ages ago and tell people?

Eddy,

An "invisible clause" is a clause which, in my view, is grossly unfair.

See Council Directive 93/13/EEC of 5 April 1993 on unfair terms in consumer contracts which states, inter alia, that a contract which is:

"irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted beofre the conclusion of the contract"

"enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract"

is unfair.

Regards

Sheridan

Eddy,

How can it be "invisible" if its in French commercial law?

What i think you mean is that it is "invisible" as regards to our "Bail Commercial" which we have with the management company.

These "invisible" clauses should have pointed out to owners before they bought.The developers,agents,management companies,lawyers and notairs then wouldn't have got there fees!We are definatley aware now why they didn't tell us!

The question now is,Can we hold them to account!

I have emailed my Notaire and asked him why he didn't tell me

1)Penalty at end of lease

2)3,6,9 year break clause

I will post if i get an answer!

Regards

John

Sheridan,<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

In every commercial lease, in France, you have an invisible clause saying that if you were to evict the tenant (AT THE END OF THE LEASE), you will have to pay an “indemnité d’Eviction”. Why? because it is the case for every commercial leases therefore part of the law. Unfortunately, this may not have been sold to you as a business opportunity but a property.

This, you can not change unless you have an agreement with the Management Company (no I have never negotiated any waiver with any Management Company) also this should be only in the conditions that the Management Company (Tenant) respected the contract “the lease”.

With the non-payment of your rent, the Management Company broke the contract and you should have the right to evict them but this unfortunately follows a number of legal procedures and as you will see on the forum, it is better to join a group to take these actions as a greater number of owners will put more pressure on the solicitor to succeed quicker.

I am just starting to view some cases on a RH residence for the first time, this week, but I already know that there are a number of different leases for each property and X number of proposal in regards to the future rent (if any) or review of the lease like: reduction of yield, deferred payment...

In regards to a concrete example, I can only tell you that in another case (Residence Les Jardins d’Elisa) some owners successfully evicted their Management Company for non-payment (Therefore breach of the lease) but it also been the case of appeals from the Management Company which is slowing down the process for others.

Our services are to look after each individual investor in regards to his/her own problems like financial, taxation, etc... In regards to any legal actions we can only suggest where to go and give you some examples but before we do so, we will definitely need to view your lease as there are many different one around.

RH being one of the biggest Management Company in France it could be more complicated to evict them but as per what is mention in the forum I will presume that it will be grounds for you to evict RH (which is not always the best solution) and rent the property yourself.

Hope this will help a little. I will let you know on the forum how I get on with RH case I am following and their proposal.

Regards,

Eddy

And how do you propose to resolve the problem of payment of the 'indemnité d'éviction'? Have you managed to negotiate a waiver with any of the management companies and if so can you give us some concrete examples.

Regards

Sheridan

Hi

We are also owners of an apartment in Golf Garden Levernois and have just received a similar letter. We are also looking for advice and would like to hear from anyone else in the same position either in this development or others where Residhotel are involved.

I guess it would be a good idea if we all got together to deal/negotiate with this company in our mutual interest.

Any idea how to obtain a list of fellow owners contact details? and any ideas for a way forward.

Brian L

I understand you all being pissed off with the situation, as I am, but I do wonder what would be achieved by pushing the management company into bankruptcy and therefore receiving no income as well as having no company managing the residence.

It may be a case of the devil you know and something is better than nothing especially when a mortgage has to be paid.

Of all the forums that I have read I don't seem to remember anyone walking away with a truly successful outcome and, in most cases, have ended up out of pocket, not only due to unpaid rent, but also due to legal fees etc.

Brian L

Hi Maureen,

Have a look at http://54270joel.free.fr/rechproprio.php

and you will see that you are not the only one to have problems with Resid hotel or Rhode Tourism and so on.

As your residence is not mentionned, send an email to the webmanager and ask him to add a line for your residence in his table.

Set up an association - Fight for your rent (there are legal prodecedures to put in place) and tackle all the issues.

Scrunner,whats the meeting in Paris about?

PS I like you listing of figures...it hits the spot and shows what these crooks are up too

In 21 months I have had the first quarters rent due,late of course and a payment minus 30% even though I havent signed to this effect

All in all this investment has left me out of pocket dso far..an I did the figs yesterday...32,750 Euro

I think that should answer anyones questions as to their next course of action

Bankrupt them!!!!!

hello

Are any of you going to the meetings on the 17 and 18 December in Paris - organised by Mona Lisa? --- Eurosites La Défense - Tour europe 33 place des corolles Paris.

Pleae do the following exercise:

Just calculate how much you should have earned with your initial management company (if they were paying you) and how much the new one is "offering" you and how much you should gain or loose...

Your initial rent x by the nb of years --- for example in my case my rent was supposed to be 6,180 euro per year over 10 years and 71 days so in total I should have earned 64,426 euro.

LVR was "my" management company and they paid my rents from 2006 to late 2007 so I received in total 12,360 euro from LVR.

Now Eurogroup and Quietude are offering me "a new lease". However both are with a rent deduction : 30% (base-case scenario - A) or 50% (one of the worse-case scenario - B). Both contracts proposed are for a new 9 year period... and on my initial lease only 7 remained.

So in A: 30% of 6,180 euro = 4,326 euro per year => 38,934 euro over 9 years!

In B: 50% of 6,180 euro = 3,090 euro per year => 27,810 euro over 9 years!!!

In A I will loose 22,866 euro and in B: I will loose 33,990 euro all in all… In scenario A, this amount is the same as the VAT deduction granted!

Those calculations are only valid if they pay me the rent… because the same thing which has happened with LVR could happen (and I am sure will happen again) with Quietude or Eurogroup.

Also in both lease they tell me that in A the rent will be paid from October 2009 and in B the rent will be paid from April 2009 (if I sign now)...

What do you think? Shall we sign? My answer is no...

Please, please follow Wayne advices... he is right.

If a builder, a seller, or a developer is offering you its help, it is just because they don't want you to take them to court!

Brian,

Beware of everyone and trust no one......as I say there is an unhealthy existence between them all,they blame each other to string out any actions as far as they can and bearing in mind there is little or no rental its only a matter of time before people have to sell back to them at a very low price

The whole things bent so take action and drop it if your problem is solved but dont wait around or sign any new contract

I would also research the developer and management compnay to find whos involved in what and if there are any other developments falling under the same stable

Good luck

wayne