Hi, have read with interest and am in the same boat.
It appears information on banks and their default criteria vary as differently as their lending criteria. I guess it depends how big a bully they are.
My leaseback apartment is worthless and a lawyer told me that it is straight forward for banks ( especially international banks beginning with B for bully)to seize assetts in the home country. I am just not sure whether communication is key or silencio.
How can I find out if my mortgage is non-recourse? It sounds like I need someone who can offer impartial advice having translated my mortgage agreement. A bilingual notary? I can try asking my lawyer again but I have the feeling that the answer will be non-advisory as banks are 'above the law' it seems. I just want to know what I should have known then so I have some good solid info.
I've found all my legal documents but can't find much about 'sans recours' but I don't suppose it will be that obvious?! Unfortunately, my basic french is not enough to understand the contracts in full.
I had another call from my bank yesterday; they seem more desperate than me to resolve the situation and have offered a very reasonable solution but my biggest fear is that the management company I am with will run in to trouble again and i will be back to square 1. I tried asking him what happens if I don't pay. He said the apartment will be auctioned and they will come up with a payment plan for the balance. His English wasn't as good as the girl I had been previously speaking to so I have been trying to phone her today.
Another worry is that if I do not take their olive branch, I will not have a leg to stand on when it comes to foreclosure time. I still find it very difficult to believe the French deal in non-recourse mortgages; they are far too clever for that I suspect.
Welcome to the club. Something is very wrong with the leaseback system, as this keep happening. Read every post on this forum as it will provide you with information. Nothing will come of your situation unless you get out now. In real terms, cut your losses and never invest in France again.
Good luck tomorrow . I don't know the answer to your bankrupcy question, it seems to be almost impossible to get a straight answer. Do you have to get representation to go on your behalf tomorrow?
Having had two phonecalls from my bank in as many days, I haven't heard anything since - they were to e-mail me the details of the new agreement they were offering me. So I guess I'm also back to square one!
Hi all,<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I read elsewhere online (cannot remember the website I'm afraid) that the worst case scenario is that a court in your local jurisdiction could try to force you to sell your main home, if you had your French property repossessed and there was a debt remaining.
However, my main home is in negative equity (as I suspect is the case for a lot of people in the current climate). How then would a sale of your main home benefit anybody? If the property is in negative equity, there is no money to be made...just further debt to be repaid to yet another bank?
I originally started this post 16 months ago & have followed it with interest since . There are obviously many very very unhappy leaseback owners like myself out there looking for the least worst solution to the nightmare we find ourselves in.
My situation had stabilised with a new (lesser) rental agreement instituted 12 months ago but this too seems to unravelling & its obvious that the management company is, at best, incompetent.
Like Botron in December, I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who is in actual default & living in the uk/ireland or anywhere else. Apart from undoubted shrill bank letters, has anything else happened ?.
I really do believe that mass default on these leaseback schemes is both inevitable and necessary to bring change. Why would anyone invest in anything French after reading this (and many other) website ?. Its a Ponzi scheme which makes even the previous Irish property madness look respectable
This topic has 7 pages of posts and I have come across 1 post mentioning that they are being pursued by a bank in the UK. I would have thought that there would be more. On the other hand, there is plenty of fear of repossession. This is what banks really deal in, fear. Tbox did the right thing tell the banks that they can have it. Then you will see what it is worth to them. Doc66 is also right, mass default is happening. Write to your MPs and MEPs, there is a letter circulating through this forum. We need to be talking to each other and organising ourselves into groups according to the banks you are defaulting with. You might have to employ UK or French lawyers, so get prepared. If anyone is with a bank beginning with B then let me know through private messenger.
I am now well in to the default process. My last mortgage payment was May 2011. Apart from 1 bailiff letter and a monthly letter from the bank saying my payment bounced, that's it. I have the apartment up for sale, but no luck selling it. I have spoken to 2 french lawyers who have been very helpful. Both said (one more cautiously than the other) that the likelihood of following me for funds is practically zero. I did not use my home in ireland as collaterol. I expect at this stage it must be near the court date for repossession. After that I presume I'll be notified how much it made and how much the shortfall is. And they can sing for it; they're not getting a penny more out of me.
I paid Tax Fonciere in 2011, but not in 2012. I got another letter from them with 10% fee added on for late payment. Again, they will not get another cent from me either. After I got the second bill, I spoke to the french lawyer again asking what jurisdiction the french tax authorities have. Basically, they will put the amount of unpaid tax on to my repossessed property and this sum will be added to the amount I am expected to pay after the sale of the property at auction.
Another bill I'm due any day is the tax they will expect me to repay (we were exempt for it when purchased initially); again, I don't have the €8,000 or so that is so I'm going to tough that one out too.
These schemes were a joke; totally unsustainable and run by gangsters. I put my savings in to it when the rent first stopped; just to keep the mortgage paid. Well no more.
Sometimes I get down about it and go through phases of constantly thinking and worrying about it. But that passes! What can they do? NOTHING. My dad has been diagnosed with terminal cancer; months to live so this gives me new perspective.
Thanks Trimigistus (it wavers from time to time!).
I wrote to my local MP and MEP when my rent stopped first. They didn't do much; wrote to the french authorities on our behalf. We got a copy of the letter and heard no more. I wouldn't hold my breath for support.
I very much agree with your approach. The banks can go to hell as far as I am concerned. The VAT rebate is an added complication I agree but can anyone honestly see the French government being able to inforce repayment after what has happened to many of these schemes ??. I simply cannot see it happening as they will have to go after each person individually and this can only cause huge reputational damage to the country because very very many people have hugely justified concerns as to how that have been treated both by developers but also by a legal system which appears to be stacked against honest homebuyers/low risk investors.
I'm perhaps in the slightly fortunate position of still having not inconsiderable assets here at home and this is my overrriding concern. This has cost me an extraordinary amount of money (300k) thus far for what was supposed and marketed to me as a risk free investment. I simply cannot believe what has happened. It seems now that my choices are (a) continue to pay a mortgage & take part in collective expensive legal action which seems to be open ended with no guarantees of "success" or (b) pull the plug & take my chances.
At this stage, I have written off this money in my own head as a life long lesson in both poor investing & also never ever to trust anyone except myself with my own money again.
I'd be interested in how people would think I should proceed.
I too am defaulting on my leaseback morgage that I have with Credit Immobilier and my French bank account is with Societe Generale.
Im hoping for some updates as to how your situations have advanced. There hasn't been any posts for quite some time. Have your properties been sold at auction? Have thd have the fench banks tried to claim the money back from you in the UK?
I really can't take anymore sleeplessnights over this whole nightmare
I am also in the same situation my mortgage is with SG. I have heard nothing for many years and my rent has been siezed with the banks obtaining a court order for reposession.
This week I have just started to receive papers from the again. I had heard that during the dgccrf investigation no action was able to be taken.
I'm also keeping an eye on these posts to see what happens.
I defaulted on my mortagae and the bank SG took the rent over. I had a letter sent to me via a court in England saying I had 8 days to pay £33k as it was the repayments I had missed plus interest. I spoke to the bank and explained I could not afford it and I was putting it up for sale via PV.
Around 16/17 months ago I had an offer on the cottage but after the comission PV would take as I used them to sell it there was over a £100k difference so the bak said know. After agreeing to add some money they would allow the sale to go through.
This was June time last year. In April I heard the bank had passed the debt over to a compnay called EOS. As long as the sale went through the agreement would stand, if the sale did not go through then the whole debt would be what I owen EOS. On their website they have offices through europe.
We finally signed end of September. I had to email the notary I used, PV put me in touch with them, the contact at PV and the bank then EOS all the time. I would email 3/4 times a week sometimes a few times a day. The conatct at PV was great and very reassuring. The lady at EOS was also great.
There is a high chance that they would never of come after me but I was in a position to make a deal and I wanted to try and put it to bed once and for all.
I always translated the emails into french and I found early on they were quicker coming back to me. I would email people sometimes 6 times a week with no reply for months.
I don't know if anyone else has had the same expierence but as I have now gone through it I wanted to say what happened.
If anyone has a leaseback mortgage with Credit Immobilier de France (CIF) there is a group of English & Irish owners who are instructing a solicitor to see if an outcome can be reached with CIF to close this debacle of an investment once and for all. We are all with P&V Center Parcs, but if you want to be involved message me at +447963772727 and I will see if the group are happy to add you into the class action - but my view is the more of us involved the greater our chances of success.
If one defaults on loan or mortgage repayments, lenders will normally issue repossession proceedings and get the mortgaged (leaseback) property sold at public auction.
Regrettably, French mortgages are not non-recourse. In other words, where a leaseback property is in negative equity, lenders in France can further pursue borrowers, for payment of the balance that can remain after the property has been auctioned.
In my experience, when French leaseback properties get auctioned/repossessed by French lenders, these rarely try and enforce payment of the shortfall against borrowers established overseas.
Borrowers who find themselves in the above-mentioned tricky, nonsense situation can expect to receive numerous reminders and bailiffs' Notices from France. In some cases, the French lender sells its claim to a recovery agent which then continues pestering overseas-based borrowers for payment.
In practice however, few French lenders - if any - go to the extent of carrying out actual realisation steps against overseas-based borrowers' assets. This applies to leaseback owners living in other EU Countries and beyond.
EC Regulations facilitate the mutual recognition of other Member-States' Court Orders. So, in principle, a French lender could try and enforce re-payment obligations against a borrower's assets and income in Ireland. But again, I haven't seen this happen so far. I understand that, due to litigation costs, lenders in France tend to consider that such realisation steps make the whole process uneconomical. Besides, borrowers' homes in Ireland may already be mortgaged. French lenders are aware that, if successful in having the property in Ireland sold, there may be little left to them since their claim is not a preferential one, so could rank second or third...
Since Brexit, it has become even harder for lenders in France to pursue UK-based borrowers. The article I recently wrote on the subject might be of interest to this forum's British members who were mis-sold French Leaseback properties and are now enduring the foreclosure threat nightmare.
English
Français
My husband has a mortgage on a French leaseback property
(in Les Domaines des Sources in Salvetat). We are still
getting rent from the holiday company we've leased the
property to (Odalys), but this has hardly increased over
the 8 and a half years we've had the property, and goes
nowhere near to covering our expenses. Now both my
husband and myself have been made redundant. Our main
fear is that the French bank might be able to re-possess
our UK home, although it is in my name only. I owned it
before I met my husband, and have never put his name on
the deeds, and he has never contributed to the mortgage.
We don't even have a joint bank account. Can anybody
advise please?
We are even more worried now because Odalys has indicated
that, as it is making a loss on the site, they might just
walk away in 2016. Our lease actually comes to an end in
July 2013,- we are trying to find out whether Odalys will
make us renew it, and if they don't, whether we should
renew it anyway. It's a holiday village with a pool and
club house on site, and we're at a loss to know what will
happen to them if either just my husband or a number of
people don;t renew their leases with Odalys.
We do know however that if Odalys insist on renewing, and
we refuse, it will insist that we pay them the equivalent
of two years rent in compensation. I don't know where
we'd find that money, but would it be better to just cut
and run, i.e. just to refuse to renew, and let them come
after us for the rent they want to claim?
Sorry - it shoes how stressed I am - the name of the sire
is Le Domaine des Sources (not Les Domaines)!!
Hi Westside, it looks like I have the same mortgage as you, have you
defaulted & if so what has happened?
Also, are you saying that you have 1 more to sell or that you are giving 1
back to SG & will take your chances?
Hi, have read with interest and am in the same boat.
It appears information on banks and their default criteria vary as differently as their lending criteria. I guess it depends how big a bully they are.
My leaseback apartment is worthless and a lawyer told me that it is straight forward for banks ( especially international banks beginning with B for bully)to seize assetts in the home country. I am just not sure whether communication is key or silencio.
Sorry, am not very positive.
Tri
They cannot seize assets if your mortgage in non-recourse.
Has anyone taken any legal advice regarding French mortgage default &
general process?
I have a French SG mortgage & it states under the heading of:
‘Borrower Commitments and Loan Guarantess’
Security guarantees witnessed by notarial instrument:
• 1st level mortgage to the amount of 123 456 euros on the property
purchased
Costs of set-up of security guarantees
• 3 325.36 euros
Does anyone know if this is relevant?
Thanks for relevant info, to follow up.
How can I find out if my mortgage is non-recourse? It sounds like I need someone who can offer impartial advice having translated my mortgage agreement. A bilingual notary? I can try asking my lawyer again but I have the feeling that the answer will be non-advisory as banks are 'above the law' it seems. I just want to know what I should have known then so I have some good solid info.
Hi All,
I've found all my legal documents but can't find much about 'sans recours' but I don't suppose it will be that obvious?! Unfortunately, my basic french is not enough to understand the contracts in full.
I had another call from my bank yesterday; they seem more desperate than me to resolve the situation and have offered a very reasonable solution but my biggest fear is that the management company I am with will run in to trouble again and i will be back to square 1. I tried asking him what happens if I don't pay. He said the apartment will be auctioned and they will come up with a payment plan for the balance. His English wasn't as good as the girl I had been previously speaking to so I have been trying to phone her today.
Another worry is that if I do not take their olive branch, I will not have a leg to stand on when it comes to foreclosure time. I still find it very difficult to believe the French deal in non-recourse mortgages; they are far too clever for that I suspect.
pinkdogfan40975.4255902778Hi again to you all!
I have checked my mortgage offer from UCB and no mention
of non recourse!
By the way I am due in court on March 15th (next week) in
relation to repossession, I have been telling myself not
to worry, let them take it, I just don't care anymore. I
did email bank and lawyer over a month ago stating that I
would put property on market and try to get 115k for it
via real estate (their valuation) but they did not reply,
no word and obviously next week they will get court order
to sell with reserve of 40k! Such is life!
All propErties I have here are in arrears so what can
they do? Can they put me into bankruptcy?
Thanks for information to date.
Property: Horizon Bleu Unit Theoule
I hope somebody can help me. We bought a leaseback
property in France in 2006 and 3 months ago the money
stopped being paid into our bank account. I tried to
trace the company that paid so far, but can not get a
response from anyone. The company originally involved
Azur Assistance, sold it to another company and I fear
they are all no longer trading.
“We have sold this program under the mandate of a company
called "C'est la vie properties" with no direct contact
with the sellers. This property has been bought from a
private company and because of the economic situation it
looks like they are having difficulties.”
I also wrote to the notary but have had no response from
him either. We are now paying the mortgage, but we're
not in financial position to do so. Can anyone help?
Judging from all the problem mentioned above i would
rather not try and sell.
Is there another company that would take over the lease?
Is there anything I can do?
Thanks
Hi Botron,
Welcome to the club. Something is very wrong with the leaseback system, as this keep happening. Read every post on this forum as it will provide you with information. Nothing will come of your situation unless you get out now. In real terms, cut your losses and never invest in France again.
Hi Virgo65,
Good luck tomorrow . I don't know the answer to your bankrupcy question, it seems to be almost impossible to get a straight answer. Do you have to get representation to go on your behalf tomorrow?
Having had two phonecalls from my bank in as many days, I haven't heard anything since - they were to e-mail me the details of the new agreement they were offering me. So I guess I'm also back to square one!
Hi all,<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I read elsewhere online (cannot remember the website I'm afraid) that the worst case scenario is that a court in your local jurisdiction could try to force you to sell your main home, if you had your French property repossessed and there was a debt remaining.
However, my main home is in negative equity (as I suspect is the case for a lot of people in the current climate). How then would a sale of your main home benefit anybody? If the property is in negative equity, there is no money to be made...just further debt to be repaid to yet another bank?
HI All,
Has anyone actually gone through default, repossession of a
lease back, if so can they share their experiences and
maybe list the steps that heppen?
Thanks in advance
Hi All
I originally started this post 16 months ago & have followed it with interest since . There are obviously many very very unhappy leaseback owners like myself out there looking for the least worst solution to the nightmare we find ourselves in.
My situation had stabilised with a new (lesser) rental agreement instituted 12 months ago but this too seems to unravelling & its obvious that the management company is, at best, incompetent.
Like Botron in December, I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who is in actual default & living in the uk/ireland or anywhere else. Apart from undoubted shrill bank letters, has anything else happened ?.
I really do believe that mass default on these leaseback schemes is both inevitable and necessary to bring change. Why would anyone invest in anything French after reading this (and many other) website ?. Its a Ponzi scheme which makes even the previous Irish property madness look respectable
This topic has 7 pages of posts and I have come across 1 post mentioning that they are being pursued by a bank in the UK. I would have thought that there would be more. On the other hand, there is plenty of fear of repossession. This is what banks really deal in, fear. Tbox did the right thing tell the banks that they can have it. Then you will see what it is worth to them. Doc66 is also right, mass default is happening. Write to your MPs and MEPs, there is a letter circulating through this forum. We need to be talking to each other and organising ourselves into groups according to the banks you are defaulting with. You might have to employ UK or French lawyers, so get prepared. If anyone is with a bank beginning with B then let me know through private messenger.
Morning everyone,
I am now well in to the default process. My last mortgage payment was May 2011. Apart from 1 bailiff letter and a monthly letter from the bank saying my payment bounced, that's it. I have the apartment up for sale, but no luck selling it. I have spoken to 2 french lawyers who have been very helpful. Both said (one more cautiously than the other) that the likelihood of following me for funds is practically zero. I did not use my home in ireland as collaterol. I expect at this stage it must be near the court date for repossession. After that I presume I'll be notified how much it made and how much the shortfall is. And they can sing for it; they're not getting a penny more out of me.
I paid Tax Fonciere in 2011, but not in 2012. I got another letter from them with 10% fee added on for late payment. Again, they will not get another cent from me either. After I got the second bill, I spoke to the french lawyer again asking what jurisdiction the french tax authorities have. Basically, they will put the amount of unpaid tax on to my repossessed property and this sum will be added to the amount I am expected to pay after the sale of the property at auction.
Another bill I'm due any day is the tax they will expect me to repay (we were exempt for it when purchased initially); again, I don't have the €8,000 or so that is so I'm going to tough that one out too.
These schemes were a joke; totally unsustainable and run by gangsters. I put my savings in to it when the rent first stopped; just to keep the mortgage paid. Well no more.
Sometimes I get down about it and go through phases of constantly thinking and worrying about it. But that passes! What can they do? NOTHING. My dad has been diagnosed with terminal cancer; months to live so this gives me new perspective.
I like your positive outlook pinkdog fan.
I still think the government needs to know what is going on here. French people must be affected also.
Thanks Trimigistus (it wavers from time to time!).
I wrote to my local MP and MEP when my rent stopped first. They didn't do much; wrote to the french authorities on our behalf. We got a copy of the letter and heard no more. I wouldn't hold my breath for support.
Thanks for your advice Pinkdogfan
I very much agree with your approach. The banks can go to hell as far as I am concerned. The VAT rebate is an added complication I agree but can anyone honestly see the French government being able to inforce repayment after what has happened to many of these schemes ??. I simply cannot see it happening as they will have to go after each person individually and this can only cause huge reputational damage to the country because very very many people have hugely justified concerns as to how that have been treated both by developers but also by a legal system which appears to be stacked against honest homebuyers/low risk investors.
I'm perhaps in the slightly fortunate position of still having not inconsiderable assets here at home and this is my overrriding concern. This has cost me an extraordinary amount of money (300k) thus far for what was supposed and marketed to me as a risk free investment. I simply cannot believe what has happened. It seems now that my choices are (a) continue to pay a mortgage & take part in collective expensive legal action which seems to be open ended with no guarantees of "success" or (b) pull the plug & take my chances.
At this stage, I have written off this money in my own head as a life long lesson in both poor investing & also never ever to trust anyone except myself with my own money again.
I'd be interested in how people would think I should proceed.
Hi everyone
I too am defaulting on my leaseback morgage that I have with Credit Immobilier and my French bank account is with Societe Generale.
Im hoping for some updates as to how your situations have advanced. There hasn't been any posts for quite some time. Have your properties been sold at auction? Have thd have the fench banks tried to claim the money back from you in the UK?
I really can't take anymore sleeplessnights over this whole nightmare
many thanks
UK-france
Your last post suggested you were going to default on your mortgage. I am with the same bank and mortgage company and I am thinking of doing the same.
Have you defaulted and what has happened if you have?
many thanks
This thread has four years of people worried about what happens when they default but no resolution one way or another.
Did anybody actually default? If so, what were the consequences?
Walked away nearly 5 years now ,
property still my name ,owe them 87 k plus interest and penalties which is up to 113000 now I think ,property worth who knows 60 k
never heard a word from them since I stopped paying mortgage ,
waiting for them to come after me ,should be fun considering I only speak Irish ,
Hello,
I am also in the same situation my mortgage is with SG. I have heard nothing for many years and my rent has been siezed with the banks obtaining a court order for reposession.
This week I have just started to receive papers from the again. I had heard that during the dgccrf investigation no action was able to be taken.
I'm also keeping an eye on these posts to see what happens.
Thanks to all for updates,
important to keep all informed ,
slainte
I last posted in August 2015.
I defaulted on my mortagae and the bank SG took the rent over. I had a letter sent to me via a court in England saying I had 8 days to pay £33k as it was the repayments I had missed plus interest. I spoke to the bank and explained I could not afford it and I was putting it up for sale via PV.
Around 16/17 months ago I had an offer on the cottage but after the comission PV would take as I used them to sell it there was over a £100k difference so the bak said know. After agreeing to add some money they would allow the sale to go through.
This was June time last year. In April I heard the bank had passed the debt over to a compnay called EOS. As long as the sale went through the agreement would stand, if the sale did not go through then the whole debt would be what I owen EOS. On their website they have offices through europe.
We finally signed end of September. I had to email the notary I used, PV put me in touch with them, the contact at PV and the bank then EOS all the time. I would email 3/4 times a week sometimes a few times a day. The conatct at PV was great and very reassuring. The lady at EOS was also great.
There is a high chance that they would never of come after me but I was in a position to make a deal and I wanted to try and put it to bed once and for all.
I always translated the emails into french and I found early on they were quicker coming back to me. I would email people sometimes 6 times a week with no reply for months.
I don't know if anyone else has had the same expierence but as I have now gone through it I wanted to say what happened.
If anyone has a leaseback mortgage with Credit Immobilier de France (CIF) there is a group of English & Irish owners who are instructing a solicitor to see if an outcome can be reached with CIF to close this debacle of an investment once and for all. We are all with P&V Center Parcs, but if you want to be involved message me at +447963772727 and I will see if the group are happy to add you into the class action - but my view is the more of us involved the greater our chances of success.
hi Julian163,
can you give us feedback on how your case is progressing so far?
thanks
If one defaults on loan or mortgage repayments, lenders will normally issue repossession proceedings and get the mortgaged (leaseback) property sold at public auction.
Regrettably, French mortgages are not non-recourse. In other words, where a leaseback property is in negative equity, lenders in France can further pursue borrowers, for payment of the balance that can remain after the property has been auctioned.
In my experience, when French leaseback properties get auctioned/repossessed by French lenders, these rarely try and enforce payment of the shortfall against borrowers established overseas.
Borrowers who find themselves in the above-mentioned tricky, nonsense situation can expect to receive numerous reminders and bailiffs' Notices from France. In some cases, the French lender sells its claim to a recovery agent which then continues pestering overseas-based borrowers for payment.
In practice however, few French lenders - if any - go to the extent of carrying out actual realisation steps against overseas-based borrowers' assets. This applies to leaseback owners living in other EU Countries and beyond.
EC Regulations facilitate the mutual recognition of other Member-States' Court Orders. So, in principle, a French lender could try and enforce re-payment obligations against a borrower's assets and income in Ireland. But again, I haven't seen this happen so far. I understand that, due to litigation costs, lenders in France tend to consider that such realisation steps make the whole process uneconomical. Besides, borrowers' homes in Ireland may already be mortgaged. French lenders are aware that, if successful in having the property in Ireland sold, there may be little left to them since their claim is not a preferential one, so could rank second or third...
Since Brexit, it has become even harder for lenders in France to pursue UK-based borrowers. The article I recently wrote on the subject might be of interest to this forum's British members who were mis-sold French Leaseback properties and are now enduring the foreclosure threat nightmare.
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